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TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

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Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#61

Post by ctdonath »

canistr wrote: post #13
canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

And to sort of extend my point. We always laugh at CEOs/CTOs when they fail to provision money/resources for security software and security measures in organizations. That, instead of paying for security up-front, they wait until after a disaster to respond with security measures. In this case, by criticizing the spending of scanners as a deterrent to potential plots, are we not playing the part of CEO who complains…

The crux is what constitutes "small security expense". Locked hardened cockpit doors are cheap. Arming pilots is cheap. $1B for a fleet of marginally effective scanners isn't cheap.

When the cost of security exceeds the cost of what's being protected, the solution need be reconsidered.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#62

Post by zzzeek »

tokenizer wrote: post #50
zzzeek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is very interesting. were the people scanning the luggage and such beforehand just hired by individual airports? I've no issue with restructuring TSA or whatnot, I just think that if people could get on airplanes the way they do buses, there'd be events. Not so much 9/11 style hijackings, more like the occasional pipe bomb or shooting.

What about the lines? People don't get felt up or forced through machines to wait in the lines to get felt up or forced through machines. I fail to see how someone couldn't just bomb the lines with the exact same effect you're describing above. I'd much rather prefer volunteering to use a private company's services freely without force or coercion, and risk dying randomly, then be harassed and embarrassed and risk dy…

if the TSA were abolished I'm pretty sure the airlines/airports would still have security. I think a majority of US passengers wouldn't be comfortable getting on a plane where there were absolutely no security of any kind up front.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#63

Post by MrZongle2 »

tokenizer wrote: post #50
zzzeek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is very interesting. were the people scanning the luggage and such beforehand just hired by individual airports? I've no issue with restructuring TSA or whatnot, I just think that if people could get on airplanes the way they do buses, there'd be events. Not so much 9/11 style hijackings, more like the occasional pipe bomb or shooting.

What about the lines? People don't get felt up or forced through machines to wait in the lines to get felt up or forced through machines. I fail to see how someone couldn't just bomb the lines with the exact same effect you're describing above. I'd much rather prefer volunteering to use a private company's services freely without force or coercion, and risk dying randomly, then be harassed and embarrassed and risk dy…

You raise a good (and horrifying) point.

If your goal, as a terrorist organization, was to economically wound an industry while killing as many individuals as possible... you really couldn't ask for a better target than dozens (if not hundreds) of people standing around waiting to get through airport security.

Clearly, the solution is to have some pre-security security checks. /s

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#64

Post by betterunix »

k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

"By that logic, we should remove security at Fort Knox because it never gets robbed."

There are, however, active threats against Fort Knox -- we know people want to rob it and that they would given the chance. On the other hand, it is not clear that there are people who would attack airplanes were we to scale back the TSA's operations (particularly airport checkpoints).

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#65

Post by zzzeek »

codegeek wrote: post #20
zzzeek wrote: post #7

I know I'm throwing my karma down the toilet here but domestic-sourced airline terrorism has happened before. The TSA (edit: OK, whoever it was that scanned our bags and ran us through the metal detector, if it was not "the TSA") was unaware of 9/11 as well. Argue all you want that we should just tolerate the occasional 9/11-style (edit: or the random pipe bomb blowing out the side of the plane, cockpit doors can't p…

This article was not about having no airline security. It was about how ridiculous the TSA body scanners/nude search/patdowns are. There is a difference.

the article was specifically about actual plots to attack airplanes: "No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US". And that since there's no evidence of any plots, therefore we don't need a TSA. This is a crappy argument because airplane attacks are known to have occurred in the past without warning. Attack the TSA on their corruptness/ineffectiveness/ineptitude fine, but not based on "nobody wants to attack airplanes anyway", the evidence suggests otherwise on that. If "no terrorist plots" truly means "airplanes are inherently safe from attack", then the logical conclusion is that no security whatsoever should be needed.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#66

Post by betterunix »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

"couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots?"

Not when all the materials one needs to construct a dangerous weapon are available on the other side of the checkpoint. Go to the duty-free shop and buy a glass bottle, and now you are ready to make a shiv.

For that matter, you have lots of sharp metal things and dangerous chemicals in your laptop, and you can walk through security with that.

I doubt the 9/11 hijackers would be deterred by the nude scanners. Sure, you would stop them from bringing a box cutter through (maybe), but there are a dozen other weapons they could have carried through or procured past the checkpoint. The nude scanners might catch someone who is trying to sneak a gun through security, but so do metal detectors -- and metal detectors might even do a better job.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#67

Post by zzzeek »

tokenizer wrote: post #32
k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

> By that logic, we should remove security at Fort Knox because it never gets robbed. Airports should have security. Every country has security in their airports. Where it crosses the line are when you have the security preemptively treat you like a criminal, and violate your personhood without justification other than a blanket statement of "terrorists". Security ! always have to = Neo-Fascism. But many people feel…

> Airports should have security. Every country has security in their airports

but wait, in your response to me you said that the line people wait on for security checks is just as big a terrorist hazard as the plane itself. How are you not contradicting yourself here? Which is it, we wait on lines for metal detectors or not ?

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#68

Post by betterunix »

untog wrote: post #25
pessimizer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be that my mother isn't dead because I avoided stepping on a crack yesterday. I'd appreciate some evidence, though.

This seems like a perfect example of the intellectual dishonesty k2enemy was talking about. Those two examples are not comparable. There is no demonstrable, rational connection in your example. It is entirely rational and possible that extra airport security is a deterrent to airbourne terrorism.

"It is entirely rational and possible that extra airport security is a deterrent to airbourne terrorism."

Possible, but easily disproved. You can buy the material you need to make various weapons at duty-free shops, restaurants, and so forth on the other side of airport security. You can walk through security with a laptop, which has loads of sharp metal pieces, several lithium ion cells (containing dangerous chemicals that can be used in various ways), etc.

The 9/11 hijackers were not heavily armed. What I described above would have been sufficient for that attack, and the "extra" security at airports does nothing to stop that sort of thing.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#69

Post by tsaoutourpants »

This post has been moderated down for some reason. Generally, posts on HN appear on the front page based on a calculation of upvotes per unit time. This post has a better ratio than all of the posts above it, yet about 20 minutes ago got bumped down from #1 to #14.

Lame.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#70

Post by wiml »

tedunangst wrote: post #45
DannyBee wrote: post #6

Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.

Why not say "Not a bear in sight. Bears must not exist."?

"Not a bear in sight. Clearly they're hiding more effectively than we thought; we must put on additional bear patrols immediately!" ?
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