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Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

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Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#61

Post by rprospero »

lambdaphage wrote: post #58
rprospero wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could see throwing a fit, too, depending on how the weighting is handled for partially incorrect answers. If the question is "What shape is the Earth?", if a student answers "A cube", I can see taking off points. However, if they answer "A sphere", do they also lose points? Do they lose just as many points as the person who said sphere or do they get partial credit for being closer to the correct answer of "oblate…

That's a general problem with the interpretation of test answers. What an appropriately penalized scoring scheme for a multiple choice tests does is set the expected value of guessing to zero, providing an unbiased estimator of performance for students who guess randomly.

Ah. I didn't realize he was doing this on a multiple choice test. It makes complete sense in that context. The Spanish threw me - none of my language courses had multiple choice exams.

I've seen people try and take this scoring scheme out of the multiple choice arena and into a more general program. However, when the answer space is infinite, the expected value for guessing is already zero, so there really isn't any point, besides sadistically torturing students.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#62

Post by iyulaev »

wwweston wrote: post #45
iyulaev wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barely. IIRC it's 0 points if blank, -0.25 if wrong, so if you eliminate 1 choice it's worth it to guess. I'd like to see it be -5 points if wrong, since this is more reflective of the real world. When I entered the industry as an electrical engineer this was a difficult transition for me. In school, you're incentivized to guess and BS. But in the real world, the penalty for being wrong is HUGE.

> in the real world, the penalty for being wrong is HUGE In some situations (committing an integrated circuit design to manufacture probably being one), the cost of being wrong is pretty big. Other situations where there's a tight feedback loop and you can make/propagate changes quickly (say, most web app software development), it's less so.

True. But generally the cost of guessing and doing something wrong is much higher than saying "I don't know" and asking someone else or Googling the result. School, through homeworks and especially exams, trains us to do our best without outside help. I would argue that this behavior is maladaptive to engineering in the real world.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#63

Post by thomaslangston »

iyulaev wrote: post #39
tootie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the SAT (American college entrance exam) penalizes wrong answers more than non-answers. A non-answer gets you no points, but a wrong answer gets points subtracted.

Barely. IIRC it's 0 points if blank, -0.25 if wrong, so if you eliminate 1 choice it's worth it to guess. I'd like to see it be -5 points if wrong, since this is more reflective of the real world. When I entered the industry as an electrical engineer this was a difficult transition for me. In school, you're incentivized to guess and BS. But in the real world, the penalty for being wrong is HUGE.

In the real world, the penalty for being wrong is dependant on the risks involved, and sometimes you can manage the risks.

Guessing is a good skill. Managing risk is a good skill. Learning how to situationally value guessing vs. knowing is a awesome skill.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#64

Post by yeukhon »

patrickyeon wrote: post #60
yeukhon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who downvoted you, but I don't quite get what you are saying (why is that a red flag and what exactly do you mean that's a red flag?) Red flag as in it is theoretical (like "of course that would be nice.....but that's usually not true)? or red flag as in interviewer is tricking the interviewee to do bad job? (making bad impression to interviewer)?

I've been in interviews where the interviewer had me play the guess-what-answer-I'm-thinking-of game, and that may be what j_baker is afraid of. I don't want to do that either when I say "get a look at how you think"; I want to see that you can attack a problem, not necessarily that you'll try the same things I would.

Absolutely. I rather have an interviewer questions me why I think my solution is a solution (even if it is a terrible n^3 solution).

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#65

Post by InclinedPlane »

IanCal wrote: post #35
asgard1024 wrote: post #8

I have long suspected this to be true. That's my argument against mandatory voting, because if people can choose not to vote, they can express they don't know and hopefully leave the result on people who feel they do know. However, it's a bit unclear how this ties together with Dunning-Kruger effect (which is also used as an argument against democracy). The D-K effect would suggest that if you allow people to express…

> Dunning-Kruger effect (which is also used as an argument against democracy) Democracy isn't about having an efficient system, it's about having a stable system. Democracy is an awful way of getting things done, it's just a reasonably good way of stopping very bad things from happening.

I wish more people understood this. People alwayss complain about gridlock, but gridlock is great. It might block progress sometimes but it blocks regresssion just as often. It ensures that changes tend to have wide popular support.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#66

Post by InclinedPlane »

lmkg wrote: post #24

I think part of this conditioning from taking tests in school. For twelve or more years of your life, in any situation where you are asked to demonstrate your knowledge, a null response is treated in the same negative fashion as an incorrect response, and getting outside help is disallowed. No wonder we try and guess, we've literally been trained for years that it's the best approach! Compounding that, an interview i…

School basically teaches all the wrong lessons for people going into professional work. Memorize minutiae, plug and chug, devalue high level understanding, concentrate on trivial problems, etc. It's a shame that apprenticeship has fallen out of favor, it's such a vastly superior method to teach professional skills.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#67

Post by lambdaphage »

rprospero wrote: post #61
lambdaphage wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a general problem with the interpretation of test answers. What an appropriately penalized scoring scheme for a multiple choice tests does is set the expected value of guessing to zero, providing an unbiased estimator of performance for students who guess randomly.

Ah. I didn't realize he was doing this on a multiple choice test. It makes complete sense in that context. The Spanish threw me - none of my language courses had multiple choice exams. I've seen people try and take this scoring scheme out of the multiple choice arena and into a more general program. However, when the answer space is infinite, the expected value for guessing is already zero, so there really isn't any…

Sorry, I should have clarified-- my boss is Spanish but works in computational biology, not Spanish lang/lit.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#68

Post by adamconroy »

In an interview i have never had a problem saying that I don't know something or that I do know about something but can't recall the specific answer.

I normally try and turn that scenario into a quick discussion where I hopefully let the interviewer display their vast knowledge and insight. Assuming the question is relevant I am always geniuenly interested in finding out about something I don't know. Seeing that I am not being paid to take the interview I feel it is only fair that I get something out of it.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#69

Post by eru »

rprospero wrote: post #61
lambdaphage wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a general problem with the interpretation of test answers. What an appropriately penalized scoring scheme for a multiple choice tests does is set the expected value of guessing to zero, providing an unbiased estimator of performance for students who guess randomly.

Ah. I didn't realize he was doing this on a multiple choice test. It makes complete sense in that context. The Spanish threw me - none of my language courses had multiple choice exams. I've seen people try and take this scoring scheme out of the multiple choice arena and into a more general program. However, when the answer space is infinite, the expected value for guessing is already zero, so there really isn't any…

In the real world "I don't know" has more utility than a wrong answer. So you can argue that education should follow that route, too.

Re: Encouraging interviewees to say “I don’t know” improves performance

#70

Post by eru »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #66
lmkg wrote: post #24

I think part of this conditioning from taking tests in school. For twelve or more years of your life, in any situation where you are asked to demonstrate your knowledge, a null response is treated in the same negative fashion as an incorrect response, and getting outside help is disallowed. No wonder we try and guess, we've literally been trained for years that it's the best approach! Compounding that, an interview i…

School basically teaches all the wrong lessons for people going into professional work. Memorize minutiae, plug and chug, devalue high level understanding, concentrate on trivial problems, etc. It's a shame that apprenticeship has fallen out of favor, it's such a vastly superior method to teach professional skills.

A comparison with Germany might be insightful here. Apprenciteship is going strong there.
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