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How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

adii.me

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Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#61

Post by rayiner »

rrhoover wrote: post #48
ggreer wrote: post #40

I'm not sure why you posted this. Are the pageviews from the controversy really enough to offset a long-term loss of reputation? Maybe you don't understand the line you crossed. You advertised video courses taught by talented entrepreneurs. Later, you launched what is effectively a forum. These two things are hardly similar, but you charged users for the latter when they signed up to pay for the former. Couch it in a…

Adii isn't forcing anyone to pay and as he stated in his essay, he personally reached out to customers to inform them the video content was ready YET. Adii isn't doing a bait-and-switch without intention of delivering a quality product. He left his successful startup, WooThemes, to build a platform to help entrepreneurs. Before criticizing his approach coming from the outside (with less context), I'd prefer to hear d…

He's doing exactly a bit and switch, and he's proud of it judging by his writing.

Let's consider a meat space analogy. Say I'm establishing a maid service. I don't have any maids or cleaning equipment, but I want to gauge interest in the neighborhood by signing people up for appointments and take their billing info. I don't tell them that this is what I'm doing. If I "reach out" to my customers and then say "J/K, I don't have an actual business yet, but I will soon!" that doesn't make it all okay. If I took any money on top of that, that's fraud. Indeed, even if I didn't take any money, taking billing info for a product that doesn't exist without telling customers as much is sketchy as fuck at best.

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#62

Post by [deleted] »

thibaut_barrere wrote: post #56
BrechtVds wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it customers were informed about the change in plans before they had to hand over their money, so it's definitely not as bad as you put it. The roadmap was actually changed because of those customers, so presumably the end result should align better with what they really were looking for. I would've done an opt-in though.

(disclaimer: I'm a initial customer who asked for a refund!). Opt-in would have been the minimum to my taste. Here is how I lived the experiment from here: - the billing info was captured by making me believe the content was completely available (it's actually still advertised here http://publicbeta.co/library/ ) - I wrote to Adii who asked back for my trust etc, I said: ok let's wait until this guy is able to bootst…

[deleted]

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#63

Post by Robin_Message »

BrechtVds wrote: post #47
ggreer wrote: post #40

I'm not sure why you posted this. Are the pageviews from the controversy really enough to offset a long-term loss of reputation? Maybe you don't understand the line you crossed. You advertised video courses taught by talented entrepreneurs. Later, you launched what is effectively a forum. These two things are hardly similar, but you charged users for the latter when they signed up to pay for the former. Couch it in a…

As I understand it customers were informed about the change in plans before they had to hand over their money, so it's definitely not as bad as you put it. The roadmap was actually changed because of those customers, so presumably the end result should align better with what they really were looking for. I would've done an opt-in though.

Getting the customer to say "Yes" repeatedly [1], and relying on their own internal consistency to make them less likely to change their mind [2], is a well known sales technique.

So this would still be a dark pattern even with an opt-in, since people will mentally start rationalising ("It's a good service for smart entrepreneurs like me to learn from each other") instead of assessing it from scratch ("It's an online startup community I pay to belong to. Is that worth $30 a month? Hacker News is free...").

It's a shame, because if the thing people had paid for had been delivered this would have probably been okay, but as it is, it seems pretty unethical.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique [2] Can't find a good reference, but basically avoiding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#64

Post by BrechtVds »

thibaut_barrere wrote: post #56
BrechtVds wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it customers were informed about the change in plans before they had to hand over their money, so it's definitely not as bad as you put it. The roadmap was actually changed because of those customers, so presumably the end result should align better with what they really were looking for. I would've done an opt-in though.

(disclaimer: I'm a initial customer who asked for a refund!). Opt-in would have been the minimum to my taste. Here is how I lived the experiment from here: - the billing info was captured by making me believe the content was completely available (it's actually still advertised here http://publicbeta.co/library/ ) - I wrote to Adii who asked back for my trust etc, I said: ok let's wait until this guy is able to bootst…

That does sound like a scammy experience.

Personally I wouldn't mind about leaving my CC details if I was told the entire truth afterwards and then had the opportunity to opt-in again. Any reason why you didn't take the "second opt-in" approach, Adii?

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#65

Post by davidw »

tinco wrote: post #59
adii wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did read that we never took anybody's money, right?

No one does, this is the internet. They found something wrong with your project and they're going to jump on it like flesh hounds. No one's going to mention a small detail like that you never took anyone's money or even that you never had malicious intent. These are Hacker News commenters, prototypal white knights eager to show off their perfect moral compasses, disregarding any opportunity for reflection or relativi…

I wonder how many of these people have actually built something and made a living from it? Or tried? Or spent months building something only to find out no one wanted it?

No, it is not something I would have done, but I really understand the need to have some idea of what's going to work, and could see how one might go too far in pursuit of that.

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#66

Post by Robin_Message »

adii wrote: post #52
USNetizen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is deception which and walks a fine line between legit and fraud. It doesn't matter what you think about who should do this or not - someone will attempt to emulate it, and they will end up in prison for taking money and not producing anything. It degrades the reputation of entrepreneurs everywhere who are diligently trying to build their businesses the RIGHT way. The fact that you brag about it so boastfully is…

You did read that we never took anybody's money, right?

Since no-one reads newletters properly, I bet at least one of your "customers" thinks they are paying for access to some videos which they will intend to watch at some point in the future, and will be pretty pissed in the future when they discover they've been paying for months and those videos are still not available.

The shady part is doing the pivot without doing another opt-in. It's a classic bait ("Subscribe to get access to videos") and switch ("Continue paying to get access to a community and the promise of plans to make said videos in the future").

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#67

Post by jamesk_au »

davidw wrote: post #65
tinco wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one does, this is the internet. They found something wrong with your project and they're going to jump on it like flesh hounds. No one's going to mention a small detail like that you never took anyone's money or even that you never had malicious intent. These are Hacker News commenters, prototypal white knights eager to show off their perfect moral compasses, disregarding any opportunity for reflection or relativi…

I wonder how many of these people have actually built something and made a living from it? Or tried? Or spent months building something only to find out no one wanted it? No, it is not something I would have done, but I really understand the need to have some idea of what's going to work, and could see how one might go too far in pursuit of that.

I have done all of those things and I maintain the view that there is no reasonable justification for deliberate deception in commerce. A fortiori amongst startup entrepreneurs, who should be doing their best to foster collegial relationships with one another based on mutual trust and confidence - ironically, one of PublicBeta's own goals.

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#69

Post by adii »

Robin_Message wrote: post #66
adii wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did read that we never took anybody's money, right?

Since no-one reads newletters properly, I bet at least one of your "customers" thinks they are paying for access to some videos which they will intend to watch at some point in the future, and will be pretty pissed in the future when they discover they've been paying for months and those videos are still not available. The shady part is doing the pivot without doing another opt-in. It's a classic bait ("Subscribe to…

If that's the case, I'm happy to issue a full refund, no questions asked.

There's a major difference between trying to scam someone and pushing the boundaries to validate (and de-risk) an idea. If our ideas are shit, I will never take someone's money for that (hence the no questions asked, full refund).

Re: How I Made $4000 Selling A Product I Didn't Have

#70

Post by yesplorer »

Honest question: taking customers' billing information with the promise of a product at a later date without they actually knowing that you don't even having the product. (more importantly when customers' are made to think the product exists: http://publicbeta.co/library/)

Is it even legal?

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