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The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

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Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#61

Post by graycat »

A 'startup' need not be something in Silicon Valley, based on information technology, venture funded, and intended for an exit at $1+ billion.

Working at GM, GE, IBM, Cisco, or any of a long list of other famous, big companies tends to be a long walk on a short pier and not a 'career' with which one can get hired, buy a house, support a family, grow in prosperity, pay for college for the kids, and retire comfortably.

Why? Such a career needs to last about 45 years, and in all of the history of the US since the Industrial Revolution there has been only a tiny fraction of jobs in large corporations that could be the basis of such a career.

E.g., might have joined IBM in 1950 and then, 44 years later, lost the job when the company lost $16 billion and went from 407,000 employees down to 209,000 and cleared out rush hour traffic jams in a large chunk of Upstate NY. That was about the best shot at a 45 year career in IBM: Join before 1950? IBM was not much of a company then. Join IBM after 1950? Likely the job would last less than the 44 years of my example.

GM? Shipped most of its jobs out of the US, helped Detroit and much of Michigan and much of the Midwest Rust Belt look like a war zone, and went bankrupt.

GE? Discovered that good products made in Japan sold quantity 1 retail in the US for less than the direct, marginal manufacturing cost at GE, and GE closed down big chunks of their business.

So, what's keeping people in the US employed? Mostly small businesses, especially ones with a geographical barrier to entry. Such businesses do need to be started and, thus, are startups. The US has millions of such businesses all across the US in big cities down to towns that are just crossroads. Net, startups are most of what is keeping the US economy running.

So, the broad idea that startups are rare and strange with a lot of obscure aspects is a bit silly. E.g., long lists of points of tricky advice on just how to do a startup are a big silly for nearly all US startups. E.g., in my neighborhood, the guys mowing grass show up with a relatively new truck worth, say, $30,000, towing a trailer with at least one lawnmower worth maybe $15,000 -- could plug together quite a server farm for that much cash.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#62

Post by crucini »

gregd wrote: post #35

As a 46 year old, white male with almost 20 years of IT experience, what I hear a lot of these startups saying is, "We don't really give a shit about you, your life or your time. We want to suck out a decades worth of input in 2-3 years and when you burn out, fuck you. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out." Who wants to live like that? These expectations will continue to gradually get WORSE...if you c…

But what do you think causes burnout? Doing 10 years of work in 3 years? To me, that's energizing. What causes burnout for me is doing the same thing too many times.

Also, doing too little work over too much time with too many chefs spoiling the broth.

Also, repeatedly building things that get scrapped due to a change in direction.

So I've found startups less burnout-inducing than big companies.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#63

Post by sannabonner »

nemesisj wrote: post #44

One of the things we talk about a lot is how overtime and working more than 40-50 hours a week is always a management failure. We didn't raise enough money, or plan well enough, or get enough people, or understand what we were doing, etc. We work really really hard, but we make sure it's within those parameters, except in some really rare emergency scenarios. During interviews, people always look at me like I have tw…

I'm glad to read this, nemesisj. I was just reading last night the parameters for applying my startup idea for inclusion in the YC program, and was getting pretty excited that such a program exists.

I'm new to actually trying to be an entrepreneur (as opposed to just thinking about it), and it is encouraging to read that your version of working more than fairly-standard full time is management failure. I agree entirely.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#64

Post by rfnslyr »

JonFish85 wrote: post #55
rfnslyr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is infinitely easier when you know, at the end of the day, no matter how bad you fuck up you still have your parents to fall back on versus if you fuck up, you're on the street. It adds a whole new layer of privilege.

While that's true, I do wonder if there's a certain level of hunger that you get if you don't have your parents' wealth to fall back on, or a trust fund or whatever. Gonna make a "Dark Knight Rises" reference here, buckle up. During the escape scene from the prison-pit, Bruce Wayne only makes the jump once he takes off the rope and uses the fear of death to drive him. I wonder if that can be a motivator for some peop…

It is. I grew up in a bit of a different family. My grandparents are very wealthy.

My family does not transfer wealth. My Dad and my uncles are all self made men, the only thing they have to fall back on is the bed and food at their parents if things go south, not a cent of their money, and this has been made clear from their modest, even poor upbringing. No private schooling. No excessive tutoring, no special hires. You are dealt the same hand as everybody else. To my grandparents and parents, simple having FOOD and a free bed to fall back on is more than enough to alleviate any stress we have.

Everybody in my family works like dogs to reach my previous families wealth, and now it's the same for me. As soon as I was legal, my parents gave me $1000 for rent and food for the first two months of living on my own or I can return and pay them rent and still live under their rules.

While I'm not on the streets, the shame of having to return is a great driving force. The moment I moved out I didn't waste a second, I got to work, everyday, all day, because time was limited.

It is definitely a motivator.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#65

Post by crucini »

rfnslyr wrote: post #41
gregd wrote: post #35

As a 46 year old, white male with almost 20 years of IT experience, what I hear a lot of these startups saying is, "We don't really give a shit about you, your life or your time. We want to suck out a decades worth of input in 2-3 years and when you burn out, fuck you. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out." Who wants to live like that? These expectations will continue to gradually get WORSE...if you c…

I've interviewed for a few startups recently. They mentioned "startup hours". When I drilled deeper into their hours, it basically meant you're on call 24/7. I asked them to compensate me 400% of my wage to work hours which I'm not supposed to and they scoffed at me. I told them to take a hike. Do not ever put a job on a pedestal simply because OMG JOB! You are worth more than you think, and nobody is worth sacrifici…

Almost every employer I've had has emphasized the extreme hours before making an offer. It has never turned out to be a problem.

Only once did I object, and I didn't get the offer that time.

I think they say this stuff because it's part of their self-image; they really believe they're working crazy hours when in fact they're working 45-50 hours/week. Also because they want to screen out those who really want banker's hours and have no flexibility.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#66

Post by vonmoltke »

Roden wrote: post #46
hyperpape wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "startup" doesn't intrinsically say anything about a business other than that it's new. But the discussion about "startups" on HN and in the popular press assumes it means 1) long hours 2) a bunch of young guys 3) aiming at extremely rapid growth (often measured by users, regardless of revenue) It's probably a losing battle trying to and change that use. If the shoe fits, call it a startup, otherwise just us…

Personally I think the term startup is overused. I regularly see simple premium membership sites paraded around as startups in all the startup news feeds.

I work for a small company (less than 20 people including contractors) that has been in business for 16 years. When I left my giant-ass defense contractor job to come here, a couple people there insisted on referring to it as a "startup". It is rapidly becoming a word that means whatever the speaker wants it to.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#67

Post by philwelch »

rfnslyr wrote: post #64
JonFish85 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's true, I do wonder if there's a certain level of hunger that you get if you don't have your parents' wealth to fall back on, or a trust fund or whatever. Gonna make a "Dark Knight Rises" reference here, buckle up. During the escape scene from the prison-pit, Bruce Wayne only makes the jump once he takes off the rope and uses the fear of death to drive him. I wonder if that can be a motivator for some peop…

It is. I grew up in a bit of a different family. My grandparents are very wealthy. My family does not transfer wealth. My Dad and my uncles are all self made men, the only thing they have to fall back on is the bed and food at their parents if things go south, not a cent of their money, and this has been made clear from their modest, even poor upbringing. No private schooling. No excessive tutoring, no special hires.…

You have food and a free bed to fall back on. That's an immense safety net--exactly the kind of privilege we're talking about. And presumably that free bed is in some safe, comfortable suburb or at least the nicer part of the city, the food's not too bad either, and you can even take your MacBook home with you.

Some people don't have any living family members who can take them in. Both of my parents, all of my grandparents, and my only aunt are all dead. The rest of my family are people I don't know too well. I don't have the safety net you have. I've known immigrants who send most of their money back home to their parents. I know parents who have to support their own children.

Being young and childless with parents willing to take you in and feed you is a huge privilege and a massive safety net. Don't go around saying you're motivated because you don't have one.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#68

Post by rfnslyr »

slantyyz wrote: post #59
jasonkester wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see that as a downside. I see it as an upside. I'm in the same place as you (42/20), and I've always loved working for startups. Just make sure they're paying you by the hour (contracts are best) and let them suck as much of your experience out as they need. And be sure to charge accordingly, since the thing you're selling isn't your butt in a seat, but the 20 years of accumulated knowledge and that giant \code\…

I have a slightly different view (43/20). I like to work for small companies that have a bit of startup thinking (let's get things done, build cool stuff and be open minded about fresh and contrarian ideas) but that are run by people who have a more balanced view of how much time their employees should work. At my stage in life (speaking only for myself), I don't buy into those BS sales jobs from hiring managers of g…

Only work on contract. Only bill by hour, day, or week (depending on how good you are). I don't believe in loyalty to a company or scene. I'm here to make money to fund my own life, that's it.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#69

Post by slantyyz »

rfnslyr wrote: post #68
slantyyz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a slightly different view (43/20). I like to work for small companies that have a bit of startup thinking (let's get things done, build cool stuff and be open minded about fresh and contrarian ideas) but that are run by people who have a more balanced view of how much time their employees should work. At my stage in life (speaking only for myself), I don't buy into those BS sales jobs from hiring managers of g…

Only work on contract. Only bill by hour, day, or week (depending on how good you are). I don't believe in loyalty to a company or scene. I'm here to make money to fund my own life, that's it.

It is one way to go, but I think it's still important to set limits.

Getting paid by the hour by a company willing you pay you overtime to be overworked still means that there's a risk of burning out.

Re: The Startup Life Is Not For Everyone

#70

Post by rfnslyr »

crucini wrote: post #65
rfnslyr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've interviewed for a few startups recently. They mentioned "startup hours". When I drilled deeper into their hours, it basically meant you're on call 24/7. I asked them to compensate me 400% of my wage to work hours which I'm not supposed to and they scoffed at me. I told them to take a hike. Do not ever put a job on a pedestal simply because OMG JOB! You are worth more than you think, and nobody is worth sacrifici…

Almost every employer I've had has emphasized the extreme hours before making an offer. It has never turned out to be a problem. Only once did I object, and I didn't get the offer that time. I think they say this stuff because it's part of their self-image; they really believe they're working crazy hours when in fact they're working 45-50 hours/week. Also because they want to screen out those who really want banker's…

Who on earth wants banking hours (I'm assuming you're referencing the hours that were outlined in recent articles on HN)? I work in a bank and we're forced to not work anywhere beyond 37.5 or they're liable..

Anyways, I went on trial at one of the few startups that offered to hire me as a contractor. The hours were truly insane. Developers practically lived there, which is why I think startup offices are so much more than the standard corporate office (having video game rooms, lounges, free breakfast/lunch/dinner, other perks I'd rather make $ instead of).

3 of the 5 times where "extreme hours" were outlined, they really have been, extreme hours, hence why I'm so "extremely" turned off from your job so much so I charge a crazy premium to work those hours.

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