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A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

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Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#61

Post by alex_c »

jackmaney wrote: post #44
alex_c wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes... the PC version should come with a giant red warning that says "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THIS WITHOUT A CONTROLLER". There's still a learning curve even with a controller, but once past that the controls have a beautiful simplicity and responsiveness that I've seen in very few other games.

What's the point of playing a PC game with a controller? If I wanted to play a game with inferior controls, I would just use a console.

That kind of preconceived notion isn't doing you any favors. I'll agree with you most of the time (DS was actually the first, and so far only game I played with a controller), but just like keyboard + mouse is inherently a better control scheme for FPS or RTS games, a controller is simply a better option for a game like Dark Souls.

That is the beauty of combat in Dark Souls: it's not mindless button mashing, and it's not about precision aiming. It's about timing, reading your opponent, thinking ahead, and getting the right rhythm - it's more like dancing than combat, really. On top of that each weapon feels different to the point where you choose to use the weapon that feels right for you, rather than based on stats. It's a bit difficult to explain why, but that connection is a lot harder to achieve on keyboard+mouse.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#62

Post by jclos »

alex_c wrote: post #42
jackmaney wrote: post #41

A while ago, I foolishly decided to spend $40 to get Dark Souls: Prepare to Die edition on Steam. The controls were so atrocious--both in the default choice of key bindings and in the control execution that made me feel as though my character was wading through Vaseline--that I found it completely unplayable.

Ah, yes... the PC version should come with a giant red warning that says "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THIS WITHOUT A CONTROLLER". There's still a learning curve even with a controller, but once past that the controls have a beautiful simplicity and responsiveness that I've seen in very few other games.

> the PC version should come with a giant red warning that says "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THIS WITHOUT A CONTROLLER".

But... It does come with a giant red warning... From the Steam page itself:

Notice: Microsoft Xbox 360® Controller for Windows® (or equivalent) is strongly recommended.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#63

Post by devindotcom »

epsylon wrote: post #50
devindotcom wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got it on sale for $7.50. I had a pirated version I played a few hours in (wanted to see how the port was; as you say, it's pretty bad) that circumvented GFWL, storing my save in a local 4-meg file rather than on some server somewhere. And I can't restore him! I'M VERY SCARED TO START AGAIN. But I might just do so with the fix.

Even when playing in online mode, the savegames are still on your computer. (Somewhere in the C:\Users\yourlogin\ mess...)

Oh, really? I didn't see them appear. I'll try again - thanks for the info.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#64

Post by dsuth »

Rickasaurus wrote: post #58
dsuth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like the feel of Dark Souls, try Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, if you have a Wii U or 3DS. The theme is very different, but the game is very similar in terms of difficulty, crafting, and multiplayer. It also sports, quite literally, the most finely tuned difficulty ramp I have ever come across in a game. Every new challenge will be amazingly tough, yet fair. The boss creatures are very inventive too. It ranks equ…

Oh man, have you seen that new Monster Hunter Online game out in Asia? I'm so jealous.

Got my eye on it. So I can run the other way and not get sucked into a black hole!

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#65

Post by nemetroid »

jackmaney wrote: post #49
sullichin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Dark Souls, kb/m is by far the inferior control scheme.

Yes, that's why the game is horribly, horribly broken.

I don't agree that mouse input is inherently superior. The main advantage is boundless motion, e.g. aiming a gun or controlling a camera. If that is not a major part of the control scheme in a game, controllers are often better.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#66

Post by vacri »

roarroar wrote: post #43
vacri wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not true. You can play the game fine without the wiki, and I did so on my first playthrough... with a kb+mouse. You just can't min/max without the wiki. And if you want to PvP, then sure, you need to min/max... but if you're PvPing, you're going to be going to a wiki anyway.

What's not true? I didn't say you were forced as some kind of hard requirement to use the wiki - just that the use of the wiki forces you out of the game and that it is clearly designed to be used in conjunction with a wiki. It should be taken as read that it can be played without it. I mean, who wrote the wiki? The requirement for guessing and repeating segments is just so high that it detracts from the experience.…

the use of the wiki forces you out of the game and that it is clearly designed to be used in conjunction with a wiki.

Are you aware that this is a console game, and was for quite some time before it was ported to PC? It really isn't 'designed for use with a wiki', let alone 'clearly' so. Yes, for competitive PvP you need to know as much as possible, but that's the same with any game.

So tell me: how do you figure out that for the Demon Firesage - located in a fiery area, covered in fire - the weakness is.. fire?

You seem intent on min/maxing. I don't use fire weapons and every time I've beaten the fire sage, I've done it by reading its actions and responding appropriately - and this in particular is the absolute strength of the game. You really do not need to use a fire weapon to fight it; it's a matter of interacting with the game rather than just going "boss fight, wail away at it with $bigweapon".

What reason would you have to think Gwyn can be parried, when no other boss in the game can be?

You don't need to parry Gwyn to defeat him, same argument as above.

I relished the challenge that the game provided, a game that rewards skilful play more than decking your character (and I'm not particularly dextrous). You evidently don't like that, and prefer min/maxing and decking things. That's fine, each to their own, but it doesn't make it a shit game because you didn't like developing that skill.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#67

Post by vacri »

roarroar wrote: post #51
vacri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically how everyone who really loves the game plays it anyway No, it's not - NG+ is much easier than NG, because you start decked with all your previous equipment. People who really love the game do NG runs staying at level 1. I've put in lots of hours, and NG+ is dull because you already have anything and can go anywhere. The challenge is gone.

Do you bother trying to understand what was meant before replying? How, after reading my post, was your take away "everyone plays NG+" (something anyone who plays the game knows is false)? The point is that people replay the game knowing what is to come, with everything already foreshadowed, and consequently being able to make much more informed choices. Whether you happen to be on NG+ or not is completely independen…

Yeah, silly me, interpreting a direct follow-on sentence as referencing the sentence before it. I like how you call me lazy for this breakdown in communication; it apparently never occurring to you that perhaps there was actually a connection there, intentional or not. Did you bother to even consider that you had written ambiguously?

I mean seriously, your criticisms of the game are just generic whines because you've encountered a hard one. Finding a boss hard? Go do something else in the game, because there's plenty else to do. There's only a couple of points where the gameplay bottlenecks, and even then you have to try hard to get it to the point where there's 'only one boss/area to do'.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#68

Post by vacri »

jswanson wrote: post #27
zainny wrote: post #18

What really annoys me about Dark Souls is the shitty PC port. They're still selling tons of copies of the game for PC because of all the silly hype around it, and yet the game is virtually unplayable - even with all the mouse fixes, mods, etc. Why is it acceptable for game developers to completely abandon their customer base and continue to sell a broken product? I picked up the game during a Steam sale, spent a good…

I love Dark Souls, and constantly recommend it to friends. And if they say 'Yeah, I picked that up on Steam!' I get really sad. It feels like a game that is pretty exquisitely tuned, and that tuning is towards playing on a console with a controller. I'd even go so far as to say on a PS3 and a really nice TV. Like how some people can't stand playing an FPS on consoles, only in reverse.

DS plays just fine with a controller on PC, and as an added bonus, with the graphics fix you get the high res graphics - something that was already there but the consoles never got to see.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#69

Post by vacri »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #36
simias wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consensus seems to be that the game is hardly playable without a controller (by the way, steam has a big warning about that on the game's page in the store). Some people make do with the mousefix mod (the default mouse targeting behaviour is beyond silly). It's quite a bad port indeed, but it's a good game so I guess it's better than nothing... If you do a lot of gaming on PC buying a controller can be a pretty g…

I don't know why people expect to be able to play this with a keyboard. It's designed for a certain input paradigm. Play it with the same or face the impedance mismatch. Nobody complains that wii bowling is unplayable with a GameCube controller.

Games sold on PC usually work fine with kb/mouse, and even shitty console ports are bearable. DS's conversion was particularly bad - and it's not like it's an unusual genre with a new movement paradigm.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#70

Post by vacri »

jackmaney wrote: post #44
alex_c wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes... the PC version should come with a giant red warning that says "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THIS WITHOUT A CONTROLLER". There's still a learning curve even with a controller, but once past that the controls have a beautiful simplicity and responsiveness that I've seen in very few other games.

What's the point of playing a PC game with a controller? If I wanted to play a game with inferior controls, I would just use a console.

First person shooter games work better with the precision of kb/mouse. First person melee games work better with the movement and directional actions of a controller.
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