Google is defragging Android • Hacker News Board

Re: Google is defragging Android

#61

Post by coolnow » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:23 AM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #47

coolnow wrote: post #7

It'd be interesting to see how it pans out for OEMs that don't, for various reasons, bundle Play Framework/Services with their phones. This could be fixed by having the user install a GApps zip through recovery, but it'd be a pain to the average user. Also, are there, or will there be, any manufacturers forbidden to use the Play Store and its framework? It seems for the vast majority of people, this move is great, bu…

It is difficult to say if manufacturers might get locked out. So far Google has let B&N come in to the Google Play ecosystem when they wanted to do that, and Amazon evidently prefers to cultivate their own ecosystem. If Google could make licensing transparent and accessible to 3rd tier OEMs, that would improve the customer experience at the low end.

Would Google object to having Play on devices made in and/or for North Korean officials, or Iranians etc? Would Google be forced to restrict access to them? Granted, the amount of people this realistically affects is very small.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#62

Post by coolnow » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:29 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #20

So, the ultimate nail in the coffin for open, fragmented services. If you want to build a good OS, you ultimately have to take almost complete control. (Google is basically following Apple's route.) The reason I think the Google system is worse is that theoretically any application can achieve this level of control. So while I might trust Google, it seems all too easy to trick users into installing a different proces…

Also, Google do some kind of scanning of applications you want to install (optional), last time i checked, so that would probably limit the distribution potential even further. AFAIK, Google's services have root access to the system (they can freely download .apk, install them silently and more), but rogue apps would need a 0day on non-rooted phones,

Re: Google is defragging Android

#63

Post by blinkingled » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:40 AM UTC

antrix wrote: post #50

The headline made me think Android 4.3's fstrim feature (defragging flash storage) is delivered via Play too!

That only really benefited the Nexus Devices. Far as I know no other popular device has had issues due to lack of fstrim. And all recent Nexus devices already got the 4.3 update.

But since Play Services has system level access I am wondering if they could've technically been able to stuff the fstrim daemon along with the app updates. All it does is wakes up on idle and issues trim ioctls - Linux kernel proper has had TRIM support for a while.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#64

Post by xlayn » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:41 AM UTC

querulous wrote: post #43

i think this will ultimately prove to be a terrible move for google. android's success is largely a function of how attractive it is to device manufacturers and carriers. stripping control from them is going to force them into a corner where forking android or moving to another platform (amazon's fork of android, firefox os, windows phone 8 and ubuntu mobile are all potentially technically competitive even if they ar…

No better news for the industry and users could have been know today.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#65

Post by pkulak » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:47 AM UTC

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Everything in Play Services is application level. Just because Apple bundles a mail app and browser in with their OS doesn't mean that those kinds of things make up an operating system. Any tablet maker in China can still use Android to get a complete mobile operating system for free, without even telling Google they are going to do it. So can Amazon. Can I make a new phone with iOS for free, as long as I don't include Apple mail? Not even close. So let's not start pretending that Android is just like iOS now.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#66

Post by zenocon » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:01 AM UTC

spion wrote: post #34

As always, everyone forgets to mention the poor, slow and by now outdated Android WebView - which by the way will finally be getting a very important upgrade in the form of WebViewFactory. This may allow using alternative WebViews, such as a chromium-based webview - another important step towards defragmentation. Some more info is available at http://danosipov.com/?p=572

I've been working on something similar myself, since Google has indicated Chromium WebView isn't a priority for them right now https://github.com/davisford/android-chromium-view

Re: Google is defragging Android

#67

Post by laureny » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Nonsense. You can certainly argue that "less" of Android is being open sourced than a few years ago, but it's still orders of magnitude more open than any of the other mobile OS available on the market. Especially OS X and iOS, which are both 0% open source.

Open source fanatics are impossible to satisfy, they will always find a reason why the flavor of open source that a company or an organization picked is not the "real" open source, but the simple truth is that I can load up the source of Android in any IDE and start debugging into Android's system libraries any time I need it.

Good luck getting this from Apple.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#68

Post by ghshephard » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:11 AM UTC

laureny wrote: post #67

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Nonsense. You can certainly argue that "less" of Android is being open sourced than a few years ago, but it's still orders of magnitude more open than any of the other mobile OS available on the market. Especially OS X and iOS, which are both 0% open source. Open source fanatics are impossible to satisfy, they will always find a reason why the flavor of open source that a company or an organization picked is not the…

While I'm not suggesting that OS X is as open as, say, Android, I don't think the parent is speaking Nonsense. OS X does have and open source element, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system), so claiming iOS and OS X are "0% open source" is somewhat incorrect.

I think the parent is correct in that Google is now moving the value added components of their Operating System (as opposed to the more "core" elements of the OS, into closed source and fully under Google's control. It's a rational move, and I applaud them for their cleverness.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#69

Post by Everlag » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:13 AM UTC

laureny wrote: post #67

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Nonsense. You can certainly argue that "less" of Android is being open sourced than a few years ago, but it's still orders of magnitude more open than any of the other mobile OS available on the market. Especially OS X and iOS, which are both 0% open source. Open source fanatics are impossible to satisfy, they will always find a reason why the flavor of open source that a company or an organization picked is not the…

While I agree with your reasoning in the latter sections, comparing android to basically every other mobile os and calling it an order of a magnitude of a difference is a bit strange when they are basically 0.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#70

Post by ghshephard » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:13 AM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #65

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Everything in Play Services is application level. Just because Apple bundles a mail app and browser in with their OS doesn't mean that those kinds of things make up an operating system. Any tablet maker in China can still use Android to get a complete mobile operating system for free, without even telling Google they are going to do it. So can Amazon. Can I make a new phone with iOS for free, as long as I don't inclu…

People aren't suggesting that Apple is significantly open, what they are now observing, is that Google is becoming more "closed" - and to call "Play Services" an application is a little bit of a misnomer. It's a system level service that enables higher level applications. The Mail.App doesn't do anything of the kind (though, the rendering engine is an apt comparison).