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How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

whatilearnedtoday.jameslarisch.com

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Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#61

Post by phoboslab »

nullc wrote: post #56

It's pretty sad, considering that if the buyer sent the bitcoin address to send to through paypal you can prove to paypal cryptographically beyond any and all doubt that you really sent the coins. Even when someone isn't claiming their account was hacked (which would be a problem no amount of cryptographic proof would solve) paypal simply doesn't care. I guess that really sums up paypal: Paypal doesn't care.

I guess it's a bit more specific: PayPal doesn't care about sellers.

I sell a JavaScript Game Engine[1] and have made the exact same experience over and over again. Someone buys it, I send out the license email and the download link and 2 days later I see a chargeback. I can show PayPal screengrabs of the license email and database records, showing that my software really has been downloaded from the account in question. They don't care. It's not "proof of shipment" if the shipment doesn't go through physical mail that supports tracking.

I have since come to terms with the fact. I see it as simple piracy - it still annoys me, but I have to live with it.

Funny thing is: if someone sends me an email, saying he's not happy with my software, I always give them a full refund - which somehow isn't nearly as taxing on my mind as PayPal chargebacks.

[1] http://impactjs.com/

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#62

Post by Houshalter »

Helianthus wrote: post #41

>I have never traded stocks. I have never taken an economics course. I have never aspired to be someone who trades money for money. This is how someone becomes greedy. >As an advocate of privacy, Bitcoin intrigued me at a fundamental level. Trying to make money was (hopefully) merely a side effect. Just a side effect! >I would be scraping maybe $5-10 every BTC, and I would have to wait weeks to see the money. I also…

He wasn't "getting sucked into the game" or being greedy.

Are you trying to say that anyone who tries to make money through arbitrage is greedy or has no right to be angry at Wall Street?

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#63

Post by Tomte »

phoboslab wrote: post #61
nullc wrote: post #56

It's pretty sad, considering that if the buyer sent the bitcoin address to send to through paypal you can prove to paypal cryptographically beyond any and all doubt that you really sent the coins. Even when someone isn't claiming their account was hacked (which would be a problem no amount of cryptographic proof would solve) paypal simply doesn't care. I guess that really sums up paypal: Paypal doesn't care.

I guess it's a bit more specific: PayPal doesn't care about sellers. I sell a JavaScript Game Engine[1] and have made the exact same experience over and over again. Someone buys it, I send out the license email and the download link and 2 days later I see a chargeback. I can show PayPal screengrabs of the license email and database records, showing that my software really has been downloaded from the account in quest…

The difference is probably that in your case you're showing self-produced evidence that you can easily and arbitrarily create, while in the case of physical shipment another party confirms the shipment.

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#64

Post by jedberg »

phoboslab wrote: post #61
nullc wrote: post #56

It's pretty sad, considering that if the buyer sent the bitcoin address to send to through paypal you can prove to paypal cryptographically beyond any and all doubt that you really sent the coins. Even when someone isn't claiming their account was hacked (which would be a problem no amount of cryptographic proof would solve) paypal simply doesn't care. I guess that really sums up paypal: Paypal doesn't care.

I guess it's a bit more specific: PayPal doesn't care about sellers. I sell a JavaScript Game Engine[1] and have made the exact same experience over and over again. Someone buys it, I send out the license email and the download link and 2 days later I see a chargeback. I can show PayPal screengrabs of the license email and database records, showing that my software really has been downloaded from the account in quest…

Why not send a small postcard with the license key that requires them to sign to get the postcard? Give them an instant key good for 14 days and then make them use the one on the postcard for long term use. Then you'll have your proof (and be pretty close to PayPal's chargeback limit)

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#66

Post by markdown »

smsm42 wrote: post #6
noonespecial wrote: post #2

Ebay absolutely lacks the seller protection to ever make this kind of transaction. If I purposely tried to design a market that supported this kind of fraud, (even encouraged it, in a nurturing "please do this" sort of way). I couldn't do better.

I'd guess that's PayPal that lacks protection, since they are the ones making the decision. Probably because their arbitrators are ignorant in what Bitcoin is and how it works. I don't even blame them - they can't know everything, but one must know there's a risk PayPal would rule against you if you sell something that you can't prove is delivered to their satisfaction.

Haha, you're assuming that if they knew what bitcoin was and believed that the seller and the sale was legit, that they would have sided with the seller.

Paypal doesn't work that way, mate.

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#67

Post by markdown »

mthoms wrote: post #19

Ironically if you had sent it through the post on a USB key you'd be in the clear. Kinda takes the point out of bitcoin though doesn't it?

> Ironically if you had sent it through the post on a USB key you'd be in the clear.

No, no he wouldn't. This is Paypal we're talking about.

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#68

Post by michaelt »

pakitan wrote: post #59
danneu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gee, if it's really so foolproof then all of these comments (and OP's lamentation) seem to be missing the point. Clearly there is a free lunch, and it's buying Bitcoin on Ebay. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=bitcoin Look at all that free money. I mean, for the small price of feeling like a twat, a small transaction fee, and locking up a couple hundred bucks for a month... you get a Bitcoin. So why aren't these l…

I don't think it's just the "twat" factor. You can only do so many "I haven't received the goods, refund my money" before you accumulate such a horrendous feedback that nobody will do business with you again. In addition there is a chance your paypal/ebay accounts can get shut down.

You exchange positive feedback before you send the refund request. And sellers can't leave negative feedback any more.

With that said, your ebay account might get shut down after this happens more than a handful of times. Better pick up some spare accounts from a botnet operator.

Re: How Not to Sell Bitcoin on eBay for 300% Profit

#69

Post by Negitivefrags »

markdown wrote: post #65

Paypal always always always ALWAYS sides with the buyer.

I used to think this too for the cases of Virtual Goods, but Paypal surprised me. Our company suddenly started getting Paypal chargebacks resolved in our favor one day. Not all of them, but more than the zero we previously had.

We have a fairly large number of transactions per day, so I can only assume that our account got flagged somehow.

That said, Paypal only sides with us if it was a transfer of Paypal balance. If the transaction was backed by a credit card, and the credit card was charged back rather than done via a Paypal dispute, we will lose every time.

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