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You have to beat the man to be the man

charliecurran.com

61–70 of 89 posts

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#61
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, but therein lies the rub. The movie-making business is fine, its the disties that are the problem. The problem is this, a good movie is subjective. Go to your local movie festival, 90% of the entries will be clichéd lumbering trite. 7% will be good by comparison, but you wouldn't recommend them to your friends, much less bet money on them. This leaves 3% that are quality. Of that 3% 20% might be profitable. Peop…

Jumping off of the HBO love, it seems they are often an example for what works in this new era, and I don't disagree that they've got a good strategy. However, another that seems often discounted, but which has proven extremely resilient is the path of Disney. As TFA noted, where many studios are often prey to the talent agencies, Disney has done a remarkably good job of investing in and building their own roster of…

Jumping off of the HBO love, it seems they are often an example for what works in this new era, and I don't disagree that they've got a good strategy.

Yeah, well... They still killed Carnivale a season too soon.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#62
I thought this was a great read, clearly the author has thought through is argument and does a good job of describing his reasoning about the challenges the tech community faces with regard to Hollywood's livelyhood.

The only weakness for me was that it is hard to argue from a point too far removed from the sources of your arguments. Specifically if you are arguing the future of "entertainment" then Hollywood is but a piece, similarly if you argue too closely to the source such as the future of "movies" then technology is but a piece. So finding a place in the spectrum where one point of view and dominate another isn't a very solid way of making your point. :-)

That said, it made me wonder if computer games will go through the 'star' system (clearly some of that has happened with titles like "Sid Meir's Civilization") or if it will be different for programs. At the 'top' (or most diffuse?) point of the spectrum you can take examples from music, books, games, movies, and television as ways people tease dollars from consumers. And following that line of reasoning lead me to thinking about the fundamental question, is it money or is it art?

There are two parallel universes in most entertainment systems, the one that is designed to extract the most money (consumer focused) and the one that is designed to express the artists intent most faithfully (artist focused). The latter occasionally makes a lot of money, the former occasionally makes very little money. The "space" is a blend of the two.

Many of the developers I know are "artists' where they have very strong feelings about how their programs should work, and I believe we see a lot of that here on HN. But I also know engineers who are focused more on the "business" where they write code that makes them the most money, period. And they are often harshly judged in fora such as this one.

So where does that leave us? I think it makes it important to fix the context before we debate, as that affects the persuasiveness of the different points of view. It also suggests that Paul's call to action could be interpreted more literally to be "Work on the 'consumer focused' side of tech for entertainment harder."

If you think of Entertainment as a giant pie of dollars, getting more of those dollars can be achieved either by being better than other players in your wedge, or by increasing the size of your wedge relative to the other players. Looked at in that context, it isn't about "beating" Hollywood so much as making Hollywood less relevant.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#63

There are several reasons why Y combinator is unlikely to kill hollywood. The Author touches on part of the problem. To make a good movie you need: 1) an excellent script (if it reads like shit, its going to look worse, if the pitch is "its like X but...." its a fail) 2) a significant amount of captial ($1million) 3) quality actors 4) ridiculously good organisation skills (you'll be organising 40+ people hundreds and…

I don't know about movies, but VGHS @ rocketjump.com did it rather well, it's amazing seeing this kind of quality from a Kickstarter project...

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that the content has to have the same format as movies. Short videos (like the ones produced by CollegeHumor) can have a good script and quality visuals without involving a big budget. The market isn't "films". It is "entertainment".

I'm assuming there is a market for 90 minute narratives. CollegeHumour is only really competition for things like Archer, Family Guy and the like. So really only a competition for TV. There is still a market for Movies, and its a large and thriving market (in the UK movie going is at an all time high.) You're not going to kill hollywood by stringing together a few gags into a 90minute combo. movie42 is a good example…

In college we got offered free focus group passes to see The Underground Comedy Movie on Sunset. It was gags thrown together into the worst movie I've ever seen. We also got to see King Cobra that way.

It wasn't always bad though. We got to see 2001 as part of a focus group in Woodland Hills when they were considering releasing it to theaters. We were lucky there.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#65
Great article with sound reasoning. I love reading op-ed style pieces that legitimately educate me on something just outside of my radar.

Two points to add:

1. I disagree that Netflix can't win by trying to out-HBO HBO, because as I understand Netflix' strategy is closer to Amazon Prime. Amazon loses money on Prime shipping (although with volume, not as much as you think) but in exchange they become the default place that customers come to buy just about anything they need, which means that loss in shipping was actually a massive reduction in marketing. They tilt the customer acquisition cost lower and the LTV higher. If Netflix succeeds in creating content that most consumers can only get in one place, it will dramatically increase the size of the iceberg under the surface.

2. One of the most interesting and successful tech/media hybrids I'm aware of is hitRECord, which is spearheaded by the brilliant Regular Joe aka Joseph Gordon-Levitt. This is a stunning example of crowd-sourcing and community collaboration working. http://www.hitrecord.org/ - check out "Morgan M. Morgansen's Date With Destiny" on the Greatest Hits page: http://www.hitrecord.org/greatest

It's silly to speculate whether YC will or will not fund the evolution of entertainment. It's also not an interesting debate.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#66
I'd consider NetFlix to be a prototypical Silicon Valley start-up and they are showing the way forward with House of Cards, which I thought was fantastic. It might be a Hollywood formula, but they are bypassing traditional distribution channels.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#67
I think many, if not most, of the people in this conversation really are forgetting that taste is subjective. What you view as a terrible film is often what millions of people enjoy. What you view as great cinema millions of others would find boring.

As an antidote most people I know do not share the same tastes as me (I find the 30s-50s as my golden age of cinema and love Humphrey Bogart) as I with them. While my wife can't stand black and white movies (with a few exceptions) I also really dislike most modern romantic comedies (with a few exceptions such as Love Actually). Of course she says she enjoyed the black and white movie that I made. :)

This also holds true to television as well. I don't want to keep up with the Kardashians or see which C-list celebrity has the best dance moves. Other people didn't want to watch Rubicon or don't want to watch Portland Timbers soccer. (I also think I'll be much worse off with unbundling of cable channels as the niche channels are often included in packages with more popular channels and will likely die off without enough interest and pricing power to sustain the programming.)

John August, a screenwriter with a great blog and podcast and a geek at heart, has made the observation that talented writers are starting to prefer working with TV (channels such as HBO, Showtime, AMC, FX, etc.) as they're given more latitude to tell their stories than they are in a feature length film for a studio. So, if you were to ask me for a prediction (and you didn't), that is the way I imagine the industry going with Amazon, Netflix, etc. picking up some of those shows as well. Those, along with live sports, will continue to draw audiences as they provide topics of conversation for the majority of society. (Obviously you and your group of friends are too sophisticated for that and discuss philosophy and indie rock but you're a small segment of society.)

You can never please everybody. And you'll likely go broke trying.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#68
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why Silicon Valley will never beat Hollywood" inaccurately summarized the piece (see the bottom of the article, where the author says the industry could go either way). Also, IMO, having inflammatory titles beginning with "Why..." is way too common on HN and is way more of an annoyance than headline-rewriting.

So change it to "Why Silicon Valley may have a hard time beating Hollywood" or something like that if you really want to be that anal about accurate summarization. But the current title tells me absolutely nothing about what the article is actually about.

Agreed, the first title, even partially wrong had at least some information.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#69
post #67

I think many, if not most, of the people in this conversation really are forgetting that taste is subjective. What you view as a terrible film is often what millions of people enjoy. What you view as great cinema millions of others would find boring. As an antidote most people I know do not share the same tastes as me (I find the 30s-50s as my golden age of cinema and love Humphrey Bogart) as I with them. While my wi…

Also, I forgot to mention that everybody looks at the past with rose-colored glasses. There were plenty, PLENTY, of films in the whatever era you view as the greatest that you would consider terrible. You're not aware of them as they died the death of irrelevance.

Re: You have to beat the man to be the man

#70
post #6

When I clicked on this link the anchor text was "Why Silicon Valley will never beat Hollywood" (or something like that). When I came back, it had changed to "You have to beat the man to be the man," which is the title of the piece. But IMHO the original title (presumably the one written by the submitter) was much better and more descriptive. I don't think I would have clicked on this link with the current title. Ther…

Agreed. With the current title it was a fluke that I clicked the link despite it being a topic I'm extremely interested in.
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