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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#61

Post by samstave »

jnbiche wrote: post #46
olefoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold. What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live in…

Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully dis…

I am just curious, what is the difference, in relation to that oath, between "swear" and "affirm" (under which circumstance would one be affirming and not swearing and vice-versa)?

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#62

Post by nkurz »

samstave wrote: post #61
jnbiche wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully dis…

I am just curious, what is the difference, in relation to that oath, between "swear" and "affirm" (under which circumstance would one be affirming and not swearing and vice-versa)?

If permitted, one might 'affirm' if one's religious belief prohibits 'swearing oaths': "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/James-5-12/

I'm nonreligious, but agree with this position, as the alternative would imply that lying should be expected in all cases where no oath is sworn. Here's one small, specific, interesting piece of the history of offering an alternative: http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/commentary/161/entry

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#63

Post by joshfraser »

Amadou wrote: post #58
TruthElixirX wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppres…

You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it com…

They've been supplying much of the intelligence data that we use to fly drones over Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen killing hundreds of innocent people in the process.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#64

Post by Amadou »

joshfraser wrote: post #63
Amadou wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it com…

They've been supplying much of the intelligence data that we use to fly drones over Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen killing hundreds of innocent people in the process.

We've been killing innocents abroad long before the NSA got involved. The NSA's domestic surveillance does not change that aspect of american life.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#65

Post by beedogs »

pekk wrote: post #48
beedogs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore .

Better load up and kill somebody who works for the government to "take it back," right? This drivel makes me sick.

Glad it does.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#66

Post by amirmc »

ihsw wrote: post #50
droopyEyelids wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're adding an extra step, unnecessarily complicating your idea. The blackmail information doesn't need to be passed to a third party. It can be brought directly to bear on problematic government officials by the NSA. All they would need to do is make the senator understand that a record of all correspondence and browsing history exists. Considering about 5% of the population has some pedophilic tendency, and estim…

That's assuming the NSA is interested in playing politics. General Alexander may be well-versed in public speaking but I'd be hard-pressed to think managing political allegiances is of interest to him. Also, the various federal executive agencies (Justice Department, State Department, et al) may very well be tapping into NSA data as much as possible for exactly what you're describing, especially since the recent DEA…

"... but I'd be hard-pressed to think managing political allegiances is of interest to him."

Everyone operating at that kind of level has an interest in political allegiances (lowercase p). It's just part of the job. To not have such an interest means you'll simply be out-gamed and replaced by someone who does.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#67

Post by jacquesm »

dclusin wrote: post #52
discostrings wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they believe that gaining the necessary amount of public attention and support requires these things to be revealed slowly and to consume many news cycles. I would argue that the pace things have been proceeding at has been perfect for those who generally don't pay attention to get a sense of how important an issue this is. If this had all been released at once, it would have been much easier to sweep under t…

This is why I think Snowden is such a sharp guy, because of the fact that he has been releasing documents slowly and methodically as opposed to a mega-dump wikileaks style disclosure. The basic problem is that a large share of the American public (such as my mom) get their information from exclusively one source. In my mother's case it's CNN, where there hasn't been very much coverage of this other than the odd repor…

I think you're confusing Snowden and Greenwald here.

The way I read it so far (please do correct me if I'm wrong) is that Greenwald received a very large dump of information from Snowden and that Greenwald is dictating the pace and selection of the releases.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#68

Post by lukifer »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #21
bengrunfeld wrote: post #4

As a new immigrant to the USA, I am simply appalled at the infringement of privacy that is being carried out by the NSA and the government. In Australia, we learned that the 1st amendment protected the Freedom of Speech of every American. How can you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press when every private communication of citizens and reporters alike are being scrutinized by secret agencies in the governme…

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

The 1st Amendment also includes freedom of assembly. The ability of the state to know who is privately associating with whom conflicts with the 1st and 14th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_the_Ad...

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#69

Post by lukifer »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #56
mcphilip wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was looking for intelligent discussion about why even a small percentage failure rate is worth being alarmed at and how this can be communicated to Average Joe effectively. Instead, I get this inane straw man reply. Obviously a very small failure rate is impressive in the abstract. We're not talking about the abstract here, we're talking about foundational concerns about whether there can be an expectation of priva…

No. As long as people keep using the same online communications to plan inflicting harm on society as society does to exchange pictures of grandkids and recipes, those communications will keep being monitored, and thus we can have no expectation of privacy. Liberties have always been compromised for the sake of security, Benjamin Frankliin quotes notwithstanding. But! Taking these numbers at face value, the low error…

Where does it end? If the surveillance state effectively trumps terror, why not murders, rapes and child porn? If those, then why not embezzlement and tax fraud? If those, then why not speeding tickets and MP3 torrenting? And through it all, who watches the watchers (and who watches the watcher-watchers)? If this is all so effective, why have due process at all?

You'll never convince me that any jihadist has the capacity to inflict harm on society more than a government with unchecked power to know all secrets. Knowledge is power, and complete knowledge corrupts completely.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#70

Post by JackpotDen »

Amadou wrote: post #58
TruthElixirX wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppres…

You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it com…

> www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/

Hi Mr Agent, how awesome is it being a plant and getting paid to browse tech sites?

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