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Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

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Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#61

Post by czhiddy »

nwh wrote: post #60
gmisra wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Could you provide a source for this? I was under the impression that the 30-pin connector was (yet another) proprietary Apple hardware standard.

I'm struggling to find any source that directly confirms it, but it's most certainly the same plug used in this standard, and the Dell Streak which conforms to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMI

You're saying that Apple's 30 pin connector, introduced in 2003, was a copy of a "industry standard" that was designed in 2010?

Maybe that's why you're struggling to find a source that "directly confirms it".

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#62

Post by r00fus »

jzwinck wrote: post #22
ars wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that hard to simply swap all the pins in hardware if the connector is reversed. You don't need to able to reassign every single pin to make that possible. Lightning is overdesigned which makes it expensive.

You could say that the previous iPod dock connector was over-designed. But it wasn't, because it survived many years and many devices, with only a handful in between (like some iPod nanos) not being amenable to it years after its creation. We do not yet know what fate awaits Lightning. The odds are certainly tilted against it. Not only is Android popular and universally using Micro-USB (unlike when the first iPhone c…

> if you want to pipe music from your phone to your car, wouldn't you rather use WiFi than a cord?

No for several reasons (and since I haven't seen a single car with wifi music built-in, I'm going to assume you're abstracting wifi/bluetooth here into wireless):

1) Wireless drains batteries and I may not have a charger

2) Wired = charge-capable, likely charging.

3) Wireless setup requires authentication and configuration, often from the car itself. My 2012 Sienna is a great vehicle that is comfy on a road trip for 7 ppl, but it's BT implementation is a godawful nightmare. Setup is required to be initiated from the car, and can only be done through voice, and when you're not driving (even by passengers). Also, it tends to "lose" configs every once in a while. Meanwhile, the USB port just plays whatever's connected to it (we use mainly iDevices, so not sure about droids) and the in-wheel controls work fine.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#63

Post by mbell »

laumars wrote: post #50
Pxtl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the biggest failing of micro-USB isn't the up/down thing, but its inability to back-power the same port that is being used as a host. That is, if I have a device with one port, I can't plug that device into a hub where it hosts devices and gets recharged at the same time. This is becoming an obvious flaw in the day of tablets-as-laptops - you can't make a "docking station" using a single USB port. Meanwhile, t…

Sure you can. USB has a dedicated pin for sending power down and it's been an integral part of the design since the start (USB 1.0). How do you think USB pen drives (et al) work when they have chips which need powering? Or USB "soundcards", wireless dongles, USB keyboards and mice? They all need powering and they all need powering while in operation. You might not be able to send higher charges while using data - I'v…

I think you're missing the issue here. The examples you've given are all with the 'host' powering the 'device'. e.g. Your computer powering your USB keyboard. 'Host' and 'Device' are specific modes of operation in the USB spec, it isn't multi-master.

The problem is when you want the 'device' to power the 'host', as is often the case when the 'host' is something with a battery, such as a tablet. There is no support built into the USB spec for this, it is always assumed that the 'host' provides power to the 'device'. An example of something that isn't supported would be a tablet 'dock' with a bunch of device connectors that could also charge the tablet, all via a single USB link.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#64

Post by mbell »

simias wrote: post #52
laumars wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. USB has a dedicated pin for sending power down and it's been an integral part of the design since the start (USB 1.0). How do you think USB pen drives (et al) work when they have chips which need powering? Or USB "soundcards", wireless dongles, USB keyboards and mice? They all need powering and they all need powering while in operation. You might not be able to send higher charges while using data - I'v…

Isn't that limited at 0.5 amperes @5V? I believe it's not enough for all devices (or to charge them quickly enough). I believe there's a hack in the apple products that can be used to send more current through USB but it's not standard. I might be wrong though, it's been a while since I looked into that. Also, it's the reason why certain devices (notably external hard drives alimented through USB) come with two USB c…

As a baseline it's limited to 100mA @ ~5V (150mA for 3.0). Devices can request additional power from the host, 500mA max for 1.X/2.X or 900mA max for 3.0. The host isn't required to be able to supply this much current, it can say 'no'. There are also some quasi standards and I believe now a real standard now for 'USB charging' which allows higher current (and voltage I believe).

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#65

Post by sigstoat »

nwh wrote: post #60
gmisra wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Could you provide a source for this? I was under the impression that the 30-pin connector was (yet another) proprietary Apple hardware standard.

I'm struggling to find any source that directly confirms it, but it's most certainly the same plug used in this standard, and the Dell Streak which conforms to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMI

even if that is physically the same 30 pin connector, that isn't even remotely close to being electrically the same.

PDMI has USB 3.0, displayport and high current power.

the ipod dock connector has firewire and composite video.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#66

Post by nwh »

czhiddy wrote: post #61
nwh wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to find any source that directly confirms it, but it's most certainly the same plug used in this standard, and the Dell Streak which conforms to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMI

You're saying that Apple's 30 pin connector, introduced in 2003, was a copy of a "industry standard" that was designed in 2010? Maybe that's why you're struggling to find a source that "directly confirms it".

The standard is for the specification of the pin layout not the plug. As all the links on the wikipedia page are broken and I can't remember the name of the plug itself, we're at a loss here.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#67

Post by arjie »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15
lucian1900 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's yet another proprietary connector. We've really had enough of those.

Yes, let's just limit ourselves to standardized connectors, innovations sucks and we are tired of change. Now please get off my lawn. /sarcasm Just let the free market decide things like this, it is extremely efficient at that. Right now, Apple still sells loads of iPhones without using a standard connector. And frankly, I think my wife's iPhone 5 plugs in a much better way than my more standard Nokia 925 does.

Apple's Lightning port is protected by law. No free market can exist while such a law exists.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#68

Post by rhizome »

joezydeco wrote: post #40
simias wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a good innovation indeed. That being said, I'd rather deal with the minor annoyance of having to figure out which way to plug my USB cable than having to carry two sets of cables/adapters to accommodate all my devices.

On proper USB cables, it's always logo-side up, isn't it?

On USB cables, yes, but there is no convention for devices. I have two phones, each of which has the micro-USB port upside-down from the other.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#69

Post by lttlrck »

snarfy wrote: post #48

I still wish they would have standardized on 2.5mm jacks for usb. You can plug it in any direction, and you can pull a cable out of a tangle of wires without snagging due to the round shape. It is a superior connector.

that would be far too easy to short out/catch fire/damage circuitry/blow a fuse.

Re: Why was Mini USB deprecated in favor of Micro USB?

#70

Post by rsynnott »

ars wrote: post #17
keeperofdakeys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lightning has one specific feature that allows it to easily be bidirectional. The pinout can be changed via software, to adapt to any occasion, and essentially manufacture a new plug with a firmware update. This means orientation doesn't matter (without duplicating pins). This is a bit harder with USB, which has specific purposes for each pin.

It's not that hard to simply swap all the pins in hardware if the connector is reversed. You don't need to able to reassign every single pin to make that possible. Lightning is overdesigned which makes it expensive.

> Lightning is overdesigned

Overdesigned? Really? I'm not sure; it accomplishes the same thing as MHL, Slimport et al (which also tend to be expensive) and will be able to support USB3 when the time comes. It's far more futureproof than the old 30 pin thing.

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