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How to trap a whistleblower

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Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#61

Post by cheald »

lifeformed wrote: post #27
andy_ppp wrote: post #19

I think what I find most disappointing is the stunning amount of apathy when it comes to politicians lying. But then what can we do to stop them? It has become farcical how every time the government makes a statement on this it's almost immediately shown they are directly lying to the people. These lies bring into question the truthfulness of a lot of other government statements.

Why aren't there legal consequences for politicians lying? I know you couldn't catch everything, but it seems like if you intentionally mislead the public in a high profile context, you should face proportional punishment. Corporations face huge consequences if they lie, even accidentally, in earnings reports. Lawyers on the clock are always careful that what they say is legally sound; why shouldn't politicians be he…

Who exactly is going to write and pass this law?

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#62

Post by steven2012 »

raheemm wrote: post #60
graycat wrote: post #31

My guess is that much of Obama's political strategy is mostly just to pretend. So, there he sees a public issue and says something, just something, just says it, to defuse the issue and, then, counts on (1) the mainstream media not getting into the details of what is wrong with the fantasy statement, (2) the voters being busy with other things, and (3) soon something else in the headlines. Except for the fantasy stat…

How would you classify handling the American economy during the worst banking crisis, killing OBL, pulling US out of Iraq, etc, etc? Pretending or Doing?

If you paid attention, all of Obama's "deadlines" for pulling the US out of Iraq were the same deadlines as Bush. The only time they were different was before the first election.

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#63

Post by Shivetya »

mcphilip wrote: post #49
graycat wrote: post #31

My guess is that much of Obama's political strategy is mostly just to pretend. So, there he sees a public issue and says something, just something, just says it, to defuse the issue and, then, counts on (1) the mainstream media not getting into the details of what is wrong with the fantasy statement, (2) the voters being busy with other things, and (3) soon something else in the headlines. Except for the fantasy stat…

I agree with your assessment of Obama essentially kicking the can down the road via placating sound bites ready for consumption by the masses. However, I'm curious what would lead one to expect any other response from a politician. Are there any examples where an empower has been told he has no clothes and then the emporer agrees and takes corrective actions? Unfortunately, I suspect the average American prefers a le…

When the press is combative, the press is docile if not subservient since he has entered the political spectrum. If it weren't for Putin's obvious lack of respect for President Obama Snowden would already have been shipped back

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#64

Post by omarali »

zzzeek wrote: post #33
crusso wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for welcoming more people to the Don't Trust Obama club, but let's be honest here. Many of us saw his flaws long before this NSA scandal, which he and his minions now lump in with the set of "phony scandals". Voting for someone because of their race is every damned bit as bad as voting against someone because of their race. Maybe you folks who are surprised by the recent change in your attitude toward our Pre…

the alternative was mccain/palin. In the primaries, Hillary was the alternative. Second time around it was Romney. None of these candidates would have had any substantive differences on these particular issues and on almost every other issue would have been far worse. Single issue voting is just as naive as believing rhetoric at face value. we absolutely need to protest Obama's actions in this area but as far as voti…

These videos show what is wrong with our voting system and give a better alternative http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#65

Post by pekk »

Shivetya wrote: post #63
mcphilip wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your assessment of Obama essentially kicking the can down the road via placating sound bites ready for consumption by the masses. However, I'm curious what would lead one to expect any other response from a politician. Are there any examples where an empower has been told he has no clothes and then the emporer agrees and takes corrective actions? Unfortunately, I suspect the average American prefers a le…

When the press is combative, the press is docile if not subservient since he has entered the political spectrum. If it weren't for Putin's obvious lack of respect for President Obama Snowden would already have been shipped back

The press always likes something that sounds like a scandal and this presidency has been no exception. You are suffering from confirmation bias. The media is not 'liberal'.

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#66

Post by pekk »

pcunite wrote: post #5

Obama could have been special. The symbol, the icon for an America forgiven of its past and now authoring hope for future people of all races. Perhaps it was power that corrupted him or maybe it was his close advisors that stymied his original purer motives. I remember feeling so proud that we had a black President. I knew he was human, I know that skin color does not matter, but it was hard to not hope that given wh…

Did you really need to say that Obama should sit at the back of the bus? What does that add to the political discourse? It is needlessly inflammatory. Say that you want him out of politics, not something that sounds racist for no reason.

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#68

Post by a3n »

andy_ppp wrote: post #19

I think what I find most disappointing is the stunning amount of apathy when it comes to politicians lying. But then what can we do to stop them? It has become farcical how every time the government makes a statement on this it's almost immediately shown they are directly lying to the people. These lies bring into question the truthfulness of a lot of other government statements.

I think the answer is vaguely to make them irrelevant to real life. There's nothing we can do beyond voting, and money controls who gets on the ballot. Congress writes its own rules, and gathers the campaign cash.

I don't know how to concretely make them irrelevant. We could just ignore them, and consider the cost of government like friction, but they do fuck peoples' lives up and so we can't ignore them entirely. And they are currently the only significant outlet of safety net, as much as they're trying to fuck that up too.

I don't know. Anyone?

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#69

Post by pekk »

dalek_cannes wrote: post #47
twoodfin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What non-legal consequences did the counterexamples in this article face? I'm not sure what you mean.

I did not phrase that properly. I meant: technically in the law books and interpreted as such, but violates the spirit of the law and is unconstitutional. At the risk of beating a dead and buried horse, consider the legal definition of "torture". I doubt he would have had assassins on his trail, but he would have been put through the legal system the same way Manning was. Also consider the court of public opinion --…

Actually he wouldn't have been "put through the legal system the same way Manning was," because Manning was a soldier tried under military law, while Snowden was a civilian contractor.

I don't know which law you are consulting for the definition of "torture," but if solitary confinement is torture then our system hands it out for many people less famous and glamorous than Snowden all the time, without much of any outcry. And this outcry seems to be confined to certain political figures, not just any prisoner caught with a shank.

Re: How to trap a whistleblower

#70

Post by prewett »

sbmassey wrote: post #17

If the head of state is a proven liar, is there any moral reason to tell the truth to any of the organs of state you deal with?

Ultimately, it depends on where morality comes from.

Is it immoral to lie? If so, why? Is it always immoral to lie, or only sometimes? Why? Does someone else's immoral actions excuse you from your moral obligations? Does the immoral action of the head of state taint the entire organization? Why? If the head of state is a proven liar, but the organs of state you are lying to are honest, is it ethical to lie to them?

If you subscribe to New Testament morals, then there definitely is a moral reason to tell the truth, even if the entire government is corrupt. The government is put there by God to keep order and restrain evil, so when you are acting in that sphere of government, you have an obligation to respect the State as God's agent. (Now if the State oversteps its authority or is using means known to be displeasing to God, disobedience may be in order, but respect should still be there. I expect that respecting someone usually involves telling them the truth.) Also, Jesus says to love your enemies and to not return evil for evil (instead, return good for evil), which would seem to suggest that you have a moral obligation to tell the truth even to liars.

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