Live data from Hacker News

DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

pjmedia.com

61–70 of 96 posts

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#61
post #21

The actor I'm most disappointed in is MIT. Right now, the DOJ is one of the targets of a massive scared-straight campaign by Beltway technologists. One of the worst kept secrets in the world is that US cybersecurity, outside of the military and the IC, is incredibly bad. If most civilian agencies were private corporations, they would have been sued dozens of times by users for negligence in data handling. For those t…

So why am I disappointed in MIT? Because the DOJ has never understood computer technology very well. MIT does. It was their job to educate the DOJ, to subordinate passion to reason, and to parse the difficult technological issues to explain the real lack of damage caused by Aaron Schwartz's actions.

I can see where you're coming from here, but unfortunately, from what I've read (particularly what's in the Abelson report, see below), I don't think the DOJ was listening to MIT in this case anyway; the US Attorney's office had its own view of the case and wasn't receptive to alternative views.

And now, in one final insult, they ask the courts for special leave to screen documents in order to hide their involvement with the prosecution.

Are you referring to MIT's request to redact the private personal information of MIT employees who were named in the documents? That doesn't hide anything about MIT's involvement; it just allows employees, who did not set MIT policy to begin with, to get on with their lives without being persecuted.

I'm also curious what "involvement with the prosecution" you think MIT had. Have you read the Abelson report?

http://swartz-report.mit.edu/

It's quite comprehensive in its treatment of what involvement MIT had at each phase of things.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, we're not at all in agreement that "Nixon was a criminal" I'm sorry, I had no idea that you were this far out there. There's not much point in debating you if we're not on the same page about the realities of his actions.

One thing I should add is that Nixon wasn't "a criminal" by the standards to which Presidents were held to going back to at least FDR. If you can't see the danger of changing the rules of the game and throwing people into jail based on that....

I guess I can't really feel sympathy for anyone involved if the government's default operating mode was 'naked corruption' and then suddenly efforts were made to clean it up. If the upper branches of the government are just known by insiders to be wholly criminal, and the only thing keeping it from collapsing under the weight of its own criminality is collusion, then so be it. Let the whole thing come crashing down, let both sides get the knives out on each other, and let the public witness this and hopefully learn that they must scrutinize their elected officials far more carefully.

Also, I don't care what standards Presidents were held to. Presidents are human beings, which are all equal before the law. He was just as criminal as anyone else who engages in conspiracy to obstruct justice. If other Presidents successfully evaded prosecution for their crimes, that's too bad. However, it's no excuse to let another one slide.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All Ford's pardon did was to prevent vengeful Democrats, some holding grudges going as far back as 1950, from criminally prosecuting him. So while we're in agreement that Nixon was a criminal, you're saying he should not have been prosecuted...because people had other reasons to dislike him beyond his criminal acts? I fail to see how allowing Nixon to escape justice allowed the country to Move On. It demonstrated to…

No, we're not at all in agreement that "Nixon was a criminal" (details on request ... although, it's been 4 decades in general, and a couple decades since I read Silent Coup ). Therefore prosecuting him because he was an anti-Communist Republican would not have been good. While this doesn't address my greater point, look at all the bogus prosecutions of Reagan Administration officials. My greater point is about the a…

> My greater point is about the arena that Ford decisively closed off with his pardon. Historically, when a Republic degrades to the point where leaders don't dare lose power, because they'll lose their freedom and frequently in time past their lives, that Republic dies an ugly death.

The other point in time where Republics die an ugly death is the point at which the leaders no longer feel constrained by the threat of being held accountable for actions while in office. Ford's preemptive pardon of Nixon -- which forestalled a thorough questioning of Nixon's actions and a determination of whether he ought to be held accountable for them -- moved the Republic closer to that point, even if it also moved it farther from the point you are concerned about (which, of course, is always the one those in power want to avoid, and not out of any concern for "the Republic".)

> Perhaps you weren't alive/politically aware back then, but the country did Move On

It did, indeed, move on to the abuses of national security apparatus by later administrations (most notably under Reagan, Bush II, and Obama, though the Ford, Carter, Bush I, and Clinton administrations aren't without issues, as well) with a similar lack of accountability, and indeed an increasing acceptance that, while we didn't like it when it was the other side doing it, such abuses were just part of what happened, and even in the most egregious cases with the clearest involvement from the top, there was no serious consideration of accountability.

The Ford pardon secured and further institutionalized the Imperial Presidency.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#65
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 million people have equivalent security clearances as Bradley Manning or even Edward Snowden? I'm going to guess that's a little high.

1% is actually a little low. According to a report provided to Congress, 4.2 million people have a clearance. 1.4 million of those are TS/SCI (Top Secret / Secret Compartmentalized Information), the level Snowden held. Source: http://blogs.fas.org/secrecy/2011/09/clearances/

the key part of that is the C in SCI. an SCI merely means you've been pre-screened to be allowed access.

it still requires stakeholders delegating access to said individuals for different [sub]compartments.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#66
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. "If anyone advocates on your behalf, we'll make sure you regret it."

I think the message was meant for the Internet, actually. Something like "You think you own this country? We'll show you who owns this country".

I don't think they appreciate how utterly annoying maintaining that position will prove to them.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#67
post #61
post #21

The actor I'm most disappointed in is MIT. Right now, the DOJ is one of the targets of a massive scared-straight campaign by Beltway technologists. One of the worst kept secrets in the world is that US cybersecurity, outside of the military and the IC, is incredibly bad. If most civilian agencies were private corporations, they would have been sued dozens of times by users for negligence in data handling. For those t…

So why am I disappointed in MIT? Because the DOJ has never understood computer technology very well. MIT does. It was their job to educate the DOJ, to subordinate passion to reason, and to parse the difficult technological issues to explain the real lack of damage caused by Aaron Schwartz's actions. I can see where you're coming from here, but unfortunately, from what I've read (particularly what's in the Abelson rep…

>"...[U]nfortunately, from what I've read (particularly what's in the Abelson report, see below), I don't think the DOJ was listening to MIT in this case anyway; the US Attorney's office had its own view of the case and wasn't receptive to alternative views..."

>"I'm also curious what 'involvement with the prosecution' you think MIT had. Have you read the Abelson report? It's quite comprehensive in its treatment of what involvement MIT had at each phase of things."

I'm very skeptical of any internal investigation conducted by an institution that exonerates it from all wrongdoing. While I have tremendous respect for Prof. Abelson as a person and an academic, it was obvious from the outset that he was interested primarily in protecting MIT's reputation rather than seeking the truth. Nor am I the only person that thought so. See e.g. http://business.time.com/2013/07/31/aaron-swartzs-father-bla...

Prof. Abelson began his investigation with an outright statement in The Tech that he didn't expect to find any wrongdoing. That very statement is the hallmark of either an inept or a biased investigator. A true investigator enters his task with no preconception of what its result will be. To do otherwise is to invite confirmation bias.

Universities are places of complex politics. I wouldn't trust any investigation by an employee of the institution under investigation, much less a professor who's beholden to the very administrators he's investigating for funding, offices, and staff.

Also, MIT didn't seek leave merely to redact names of employees, although I see no reason why those who participated in these terrible events should be shielded from public opprobrium, but also any information in which MIT has a privacy interest. For an attorney, what that means is any information that could potentially implicate or even embarrass the university. I stand by my original statements.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I should add is that Nixon wasn't "a criminal" by the standards to which Presidents were held to going back to at least FDR. If you can't see the danger of changing the rules of the game and throwing people into jail based on that....

I guess I can't really feel sympathy for anyone involved if the government's default operating mode was 'naked corruption' and then suddenly efforts were made to clean it up. If the upper branches of the government are just known by insiders to be wholly criminal, and the only thing keeping it from collapsing under the weight of its own criminality is collusion, then so be it. Let the whole thing come crashing down,…

But, you see, it wasn't a case that "suddenly efforts were made to clean it up". A very large number of Democrats considered Nixon to be fundamentally illegitimate---in fact, as far as I can tell that's true for all modern era Republican Presidents except for Ike, who was an obvious special case, not even declaring himself and his family to be Republicans before 1951---and they wanted to get him at any cost.

We can also see that this goes only one way, although that's hindered by the big discontinuity of Ford and Carter being believed to be "clean" (although maybe I'm not remembering efforts to criminalize his short Administration, but a quick skim of Wikipedia didn't bring up anything) and Republicans then holding the office for 12 years.

"Let the whole thing come crashing down", well, that tells us how much you really care for "the people" ... you're talking about ending the Republic. The idea that the public will have an opportunity to elect officials after this is very questionable. Some people claim a desire to pursue justice no matter what the cost is idealistic, I'm with those who consider it idiotic. There is a reason our Founders created an unquestionable right for a President to pardon people, and this is one of the examples.

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#69
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we're not at all in agreement that "Nixon was a criminal" (details on request ... although, it's been 4 decades in general, and a couple decades since I read Silent Coup ). Therefore prosecuting him because he was an anti-Communist Republican would not have been good. While this doesn't address my greater point, look at all the bogus prosecutions of Reagan Administration officials. My greater point is about the a…

> My greater point is about the arena that Ford decisively closed off with his pardon. Historically, when a Republic degrades to the point where leaders don't dare lose power, because they'll lose their freedom and frequently in time past their lives, that Republic dies an ugly death. The other point in time where Republics die an ugly death is the point at which the leaders no longer feel constrained by the threat o…

Right. Nixon's forced resignation, on a credible threat that he'd otherwise suffer a bipartisan House impeachment and Senate conviction---either a singular event in US history---in no way whatsoever held him accountable, nor illustrated a threat to future Presidents....

Re: DOJ Elevated Its Charges Against Swartz Because Internet Rallied on His Behalf

#70
post #67
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why am I disappointed in MIT? Because the DOJ has never understood computer technology very well. MIT does. It was their job to educate the DOJ, to subordinate passion to reason, and to parse the difficult technological issues to explain the real lack of damage caused by Aaron Schwartz's actions. I can see where you're coming from here, but unfortunately, from what I've read (particularly what's in the Abelson rep…

>"...[U]nfortunately, from what I've read (particularly what's in the Abelson report, see below), I don't think the DOJ was listening to MIT in this case anyway; the US Attorney's office had its own view of the case and wasn't receptive to alternative views..." >"I'm also curious what 'involvement with the prosecution' you think MIT had. Have you read the Abelson report? It's quite comprehensive in its treatment of w…

I'm very skeptical of any internal investigation conducted by an institution that exonerates it from all wrongdoing.

"Wrongdoing" is a broad term. The report says that MIT did not do anything illegal. It does not say that MIT made no mistakes.

Once again, have you actually read the report? If not, you should do so instead of relying on biased second-hand accounts.

I wouldn't trust any investigation by an employee of the institution under investigation

In other words, you don't think any institution can ever police itself. But the alternative is for it to be policed by...another institution?

This is, of course, the old quis custodiet problem, and it has no guaranteed solution. But I don't see why the default position should be that no institution can police itself. I think we ought to expect institutions to police themselves, and you can't do that if you automatically distrust anything the institution says about itself.

MIT didn't seek leave merely to redact names of employees...but also any information in which MIT has a privacy interest.

Source, please? The only things I'm aware of them asking for are to redact names and identifying information of employees and information about MIT's network vulnerabilities.

I see no reason why those who participated in these terrible events should be shielded from public opprobrium

Even if they were acting reasonably? For example, take the MIT network engineers who noticed the unusual activity and reported it, helped to discover where it was coming from (as in, what device was producing it--the laptop), but had no further part in the proceedings. They are named in the documents. Do they deserve public opprobrium?

The world is not black and white, and people have to try to make reasonable decisions with incomplete information all the time. I will agree that the MIT administration made mistakes (although it's a lot easier to say that in hindsight); but I do not agree that every single person affiliated with MIT who participated at any point in these events acted wrongly and deserves public opprobrium.

Post reply on HN