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Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

blog.soylent.me

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Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#61
post #47

Every time I see a Soylent article on HN I hope that it's all just a sick joke that will soon be revealed as an elaborate hoax and forgotten about. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind base their entire diet off of some liquid concoction made up by some random guy who is clearly not a nutritionist? Why don't you guys just learn to eat a healthy and balanced diet?

I'd tend to expect that as this becomes more popular, they'll get some nutritionists on board. That doesn't mean it's completely insane for people to try it before that point.

Personally, I don't want to be an early adopter of this (I don't like to mix "bleeding edge" and health), but I'm quite interested. And to answer your last question: the hope is that this is a healthy and balanced diet.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response is definitely worthwhile, and a bit of it seems to be that the use case is different. It would be a bit expensive to replace a majority of one's diet with Ensure Complete. A 16-pack of 8oz Ensure Complete is 5600 Calories for $42, so eating for a day costs $15. The preorder price of 1 week of soylent is $9.29/day, but worryingly we don't know how many Calories that is... A quote from Vice on the crowdfun…

"More expensive per Calorie" is not necessarily "more expensive" for the target audience. The classic "2000 Calories per day" assumes some level of physical activity. If you don't have any physical activity, you're better off consuming fewer Calories per day, as long as you get all the other nutrients you need.

This is an important consideration. The target audience of Soylent likely has some wild variation in desired caloric intake, perhaps 4-6x between people who want to drop some pounds and people who lift as a hobby.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More expensive per Calorie" is not necessarily "more expensive" for the target audience. The classic "2000 Calories per day" assumes some level of physical activity. If you don't have any physical activity, you're better off consuming fewer Calories per day, as long as you get all the other nutrients you need.

This is an important consideration. The target audience of Soylent likely has some wild variation in desired caloric intake, perhaps 4-6x between people who want to drop some pounds and people who lift as a hobby.

Yeah. The creator of Soylent makes a point of saying that it should be tuned for the person using it. Hopefully in the long-term they'll offer versions with varying calorie content. Alternatively, they could offer a two-component system with nutrients and minimal calories in one and pure calories in the other, to make it easy to tune that one variable for your target calorie consumption.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#64
post #9

A bad idea run by someone who has no clue about what he's doing combined with another bad idea supported by people who have no clue about what they're doing? Sign me up.

Do you practice your negativity or does it just come naturally? What's wrong with this idea?

Both nutrition and pecuniary economics are far more complex then Soylent and Bitcoin allow for -- additionally, the history of both of these fields is seeded with innumerable failures to couch each of their fundamentals in terms of simple concepts (for nutrition: protien/fats/carbs, vitamins, micronutrents, and so on -- for economics, Smith, Marx, Keynes, Laffer, et cetera). The idea that either, as a phenomenological consequence of human interaction, has a simple solution is technically possible but foolhardy.

I don't deny that there may be a food that is easy to make but perfect for humans; or that there may be such a currency as well. But for any rational actor to believe it would require not only extraordinary evidence, but specific refutations of the previous failed attempts (rather, the theory would provide those refutations). Such a failure to both acknowledge and rebut historical failures in the same vein is strong evidence of crankism/crankitude/crankosity/I Can't Believe They're Not A Crank.

Somewhat ironically, the foodstuff I might be most inclined to believe would satisfy this requirement is exactly what "soylent" should be -- complete raw human. Om nom nom.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Bitcoin has no rigorous security definition. 2. Bitcoin can be "attacked" (for some vague notion of what it means to attack a system that has no security definition) in polynomial time. 3. The economics of Bitcoin are extremely suspect and based on a poorly developed economic model, supported by neither the Austrian school nor by modern monetary theory. This is probably the underlying cause of the lack of a securi…

Adding a few of my own peeves: 4. Bitcoin is inherently deflationary, which is an awful idea if you talk to anyone who knows anything about money 5. Bitcoin is fundamentally backed by pointlessly wasting CPU cycles and wasting energy trying to reverse hashes.

re: 4. Deflation is bad for the asset rich, but good for the asset poor. Inflation is good for the rich and bad for the poor. Those who usually spout the 'inflation is better than deflation' argument are the rich.

The argument that inflationary expectation is better than deflationary expectation because during period of deflation purchasing stops because 'it will be cheaper tomorrow' is flawed because such periods of deflation are short lived, and the market returns to a price where people are willing to re-enter the market and purchase to gain utility from the goods and services.

Just be careful believing people who "know anything about money" without thinking it through.

For more: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-if-you-want-help-po...

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a very thoughtful response from Rob, the creator of Soylent answering your very question: http://discourse.soylent.me/t/comparing-soylent-to-existing-... tldr; There's room in the market for more than one non-solid dietary product, the goal of Soylent is to be a complete alternative that supports an active life rather than something that just lets you survive, ensure is expensive and low calorie.

Yes, I've read that in the past and without being rude I do not consider that to be 'thoughtful'. It's a repetition of what he's said a number of times about his goals for Soylent, but it does not answer my question. He mentions Ensure as follows: "I considered Ensure but found it much too expensive, low calorie, unpalatable, and an ingredient make up that was far from complete or optimal." That does not tell me anyt…

4 bottles of Ensure Complete would only be 1400 Calories/day, vs. 2200 Calories for Soylent. You'd have to drink 6/day, making it $66.43/wk for Ensure Complete (cheapest Amazon price) vs. $52.88/wk for Soylent.

Of course, you said that you considered $73.48/wk to be "very close to Soylent pricing". Sure it's in the same order of magnitude, but a 40% increase is nothing to sneeze at.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#67
post #16
post #2

Just as Soylent is disrupting the traditional food industry Huh? I've asked this before and never got an answer. How is Soylent different from Ensure Complete? Is it cheaper? Better made? Easier to order? Tastes better? Better for me? Higher quality? Because if it isn't really any different then what Soylent will need to do is market better than those other companies. Because I'd definitely trust Abbott with my healt…

I suspect that the interest comes from the radical branding. "Ensure" is associated with hospitals and the aging population, whereas "Soylent" is historically associated with dystopia and recently with some ambitious kids. One exit would be to create an energy drink-like (young target market) product that's just a re-branded Ensure. But if you're currently using Ensure, perhaps you know of other ways to improve on it…

Have you tried Ensure Complete? I got so impatient while waiting for my Soylent order to arrive that I actually did. First of all, it's loaded with sugar, and lacks Soylent's heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash. Secondly, it lacks some of Soylent's extras like creatine and MCT fats. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's expensive: it would be almost $465/month, or $15/day to get 2400 calories from these ( http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ensure-Complete-Chocolate-Nutritio... ). Whereas the Soylent team is working to get the price down to ~$200/month, or ~$6.50/day.

Soylent will be not only one of the highest-quality products in its category, but also perhaps the first one that isn't "for the well-off." I anticipate that it will shrink my food budget substantially. Not to mention the future savings on food-related things like dishes and silverware. Hell, if I really switch to it full time, I might even be able to save on electricity by unplugging my refrigerator!

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#68
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Bitcoin has no rigorous security definition. 2. Bitcoin can be "attacked" (for some vague notion of what it means to attack a system that has no security definition) in polynomial time. 3. The economics of Bitcoin are extremely suspect and based on a poorly developed economic model, supported by neither the Austrian school nor by modern monetary theory. This is probably the underlying cause of the lack of a securi…

1. What do you mean? 2. Countries can be attacked too. I don't know what your point is here. If bitcoin survives its infancy, it could become more resilient than any other currency. 3. Could you explain it in practical terms? Because as long as it works, why should I care about what theorists say? Bitcoin's creator said himself that it was an experiment, and rightly so, we have never seen anything like Bitcoin taking…

Typically cryptographers will define a security goal in rigorous terms, then prove that their system meets that goal (at least for "cryptomania" type applications like digital cash). There are good reasons for doing this:

1. It makes proofs of security possible, which make us a lot more confident about cryptosystems.

2. It allows us to be clear about what it means to "break" a system. If we are not clear about this, someone could claim that their system cannot be attacked by simply defining security to be the exact behavior of whatever they created. This is analogous to having a falsifiable hypothesis in a scientific experiment.

The original Bitcoin paper did not have such a definition. I am aware of one attempt at making such a definition, but it resulted in a very weak notion of security that placed unrealistic restrictions on what an attacker could do (basically, the authors were trying to find some definition that Bitcoin could satisfy; see point 2 above). In general, Bitcoin's security is highly suspicious, since by design the honest parties must scale their work in proportion with the work done by the attacker.

"Countries can be attacked too. I don't know what your point is here. If bitcoin survives its infancy, it could become more resilient than any other currency."

If you are admitting the possibility that an army might attack a country, then you are allowing Bitcoin to be fractured by an army destroying the outgoing Internet connections of a country. In the past, countries have been cut off from the Internet by accident (e.g. anchors being dropped on undersea cables). You could keep an attacking army outside of your territory and still wind up unable to communicate with the rest of the Bitcoin network. This is not a highly convincing argument.

Of course, this is all irrelevant, because a polynomial time attack is not the same as an act of war. There are a lot of organizations with the resources needed to perform the "51% attack" on Bitcoin and no compelling reason to think that a faster attack is not possible. You could attack Bitcoin by performing a lot of computation locally, without ever needing to step foot out the door. Bitcoin also does little to prevent attacks based on sending malicious messages into the network, despite the fact that cryptographers began developing techniques for dealing with that decades ago and despite the fact that almost all that work is freely available.

"3. Could you explain it in practical terms?"

Sure. Let's start with a thought experiment: I have something very rare, which has no practical uses but which is easy to give to others. Will you give me your car for a big pile of it?

Unless you are crazy you would not give up your car. The reason is that you are receiving something that is useless in exchange, and that you would have to go find some other person willing to take a pile of useless (but rare) items. Would your landlord accept some of these rare items as a rent payment? Would the bank accept some as loan repayment? Would the government accept it as a tax payment (let's just pretend that you are a law-abiding citizen who pays their taxes)?

How is Bitcoin any different? A lot of hype was generated about it, but at the end of the day you will not be able to pay your taxes with it, banks are unlikely to accept it for loan payments, and the majority of businesses that claim to accept Bitcoin payments actually accept payments in fiat currency via a Bitcoin exchange. Bitcoin currency has no practical uses (it is basically an energy sink) so the Austrian school does not support it, and it is not legal tender nor is it accepted for tax purposes by the government so modern monetary theory does not support it either.

"why should I care about what theorists say?"

For the same reason you should care about what cryptography theorists, physicists, and doctors have to say.

"we have never seen anything like Bitcoin taking off before."

That is because Bitcoin is the first of its kind. It is the first attempt to create a currency without a legal system. Even gold had value as currency because of a legal system.

"Yeah, I have seen a lot of people raging. How is that evidence of anything, other than fear of the unknown?"

You are calling the informed opinions of dozens of experts in cryptography and economics "raging" because they are saying that the system you love and support is based on dubious technical and economic ideas. It sounds more like you started out believing that Bitcoin is the future and are not willing to accept any argument that concludes anything else.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#69
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. What do you mean? 2. Countries can be attacked too. I don't know what your point is here. If bitcoin survives its infancy, it could become more resilient than any other currency. 3. Could you explain it in practical terms? Because as long as it works, why should I care about what theorists say? Bitcoin's creator said himself that it was an experiment, and rightly so, we have never seen anything like Bitcoin taking…

Typically cryptographers will define a security goal in rigorous terms, then prove that their system meets that goal (at least for "cryptomania" type applications like digital cash). There are good reasons for doing this: 1. It makes proofs of security possible, which make us a lot more confident about cryptosystems. 2. It allows us to be clear about what it means to "break" a system. If we are not clear about this,…

> Sure. Let's start with a thought experiment: I have something very rare, which has no practical uses but which is easy to give to others. Will you give me your car for a big pile of it?

How does the success/value of gold not completely destroy this line of reasoning?

I'm not saying it is destined for success or failure, just that this is not a coherent argument against Bitcoin.

Re: Soylent now accepting Bitcoin for preorders

#70
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the interest comes from the radical branding. "Ensure" is associated with hospitals and the aging population, whereas "Soylent" is historically associated with dystopia and recently with some ambitious kids. One exit would be to create an energy drink-like (young target market) product that's just a re-branded Ensure. But if you're currently using Ensure, perhaps you know of other ways to improve on it…

Have you tried Ensure Complete? I got so impatient while waiting for my Soylent order to arrive that I actually did. First of all, it's loaded with sugar, and lacks Soylent's heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash. Secondly, it lacks some of Soylent's extras like creatine and MCT fats. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's expensive: it would be almos…

> heavy dose of fiber to balance out the glycemic index. Result: sugar rush followed by a nasty crash

Good God, man, that is not at all what fiber does, and has nothing to do with the role of fiber in diet. Please stop consuming this before you hurt yourself, and please stop talking about it before you hurt others.

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