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Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

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Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#61

Post by DaniFong »

gruseom wrote: post #16
DaniFong wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know him? Honesty I don't have a huge amount of information about his other dealings, but I think there is a genuine case for what he is trying to do with IV, even if you disagree with with methods. With me and my company, he has been a man of tremendous character and generosity. I daresay you and most others are prejudging the situation. In error. Keep in mind, I am no fan of the patent system either. http://…

They make deals where they sell patents to East Texas shell companies but keep 90% of the proceeds from their shakedown lawsuits. That's what This American Life uncovered recently—they looked at just one (laughably illegitimate) patent, and found that hundreds of millions of dollars had been extracted using that one alone. I don't know how you could listen to that and not find the case devastating. If the broadcast w…

This is a good point, but far from complete. It is not like they are rolling in the proceeds.

Word on the street is that the IV funds are not profitable yet. Also, inventors, who they purchase patents from, are in fact getting checks in the mail. So at least one of the following are true:

- They are paying inventors (patent holders) too much - Nobody should pay inventors at all - They should be more aggressive in acquiring settlements / awards in court. - They should shut down completely. - They should cut overhead.

Of the above, cutting overhead seems most reasonable. But there are significant activities in their invention lab. They have the world's most advanced malaria modeling system. They are developing a cold chain for vaccines with an incredibly clever thermo-mechanically activated cold finger for control. They are pushing metamaterials. They have an incredibly cool mosquito calming project. They run invention dinners where amazingly brilliant, cool people attack novel problems in novel ways. And TerraPower could, if they are successful, crack the energy problem.

Cutting overhead would hurt most of the incredibly commendable activities that they are doing. It takes big bucks to run an invention lab. This isn't the only way, of course.

But I'm calling it when I see it: IV is making honest efforts to invent and commercialize a series of amazing inventions, including those in the physical world. Almost nobody else is doing this today. They are funding inventors -- their own and outside inventors, through what many believe are questionable methods exploiting legal loopholes, but are in fact often direclty in keeping with the intent of an admittedly archaic and outdated system. And they're being scapegoated not because they might be a patent troll, but because they are a publicly identifiable organization with public inventions and activities, and public advocacy.

And it's a damned shame that we are so clannish that the are ready to, without thinking, without the requisite knowledge, damn one of the only truly ambitious efforts in physical invention, and great hacker, simply because we do not understand, do not approve of, or are uncomfortable with, the systems that are being used to support invention.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#62

Post by kazagistar »

anigbrowl wrote: post #28
erikpukinskis wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the Hitler comparison is absurd, but I think the whole "I'm gonna patent this obvious concept, not do anything with it, and then sue everyone who comes up with the idea independently while actually making an attempt to solve the problem in practice" is sort of evil.

It's the unfortunate logical conclusion of our private property philosophy applied to intellectual capital. I'd like to see some sort of 'use it or lose it' clause enshrined at the core of property law, but obviously that approach could bring its own problems.

Something being legal does not make it any less immoral.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#63

Post by anigbrowl »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #39
anigbrowl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Myhrvold 'evil' and putting himself in the same context as Hitler is absurd. One is a businessman whose tactics you disapprove of and consider to be unethical, the other instigated the murder of millions of people, over and above the casualties of the numerous wars that he started.

The point of a comparison matters. "I didn't know Aaron Swartz personally, but I know enough of him to think he was a good guy." is making exactly same point. Also, "One is a businessman whose tactics you disapprove of and consider to be unethical," the other was a politician whose tactics I disapprove of and consider to be unethical. Gotta love euphemisms that turn everything into nothing, and applying them selectiv…

You seem to be saying that extorting millions of dollars from business competitors, even if legal, is on the same moral plane as murdering millions of people. The legality issue matters a bit, insofar as a potential competitor has notice that such business risks may occur, and can plan for them economically before entering the market, whereas people don't reasonably expect to be rounded up and sent off to concentration camps fitted with gas chambers as a matter of course. But the more important point is that I don't consider business dealings, however harsh or unethical, to be on the same moral plane as genocide.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#64

Post by anigbrowl »

sambeau wrote: post #34
anigbrowl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Myhrvold 'evil' and putting himself in the same context as Hitler is absurd. One is a businessman whose tactics you disapprove of and consider to be unethical, the other instigated the murder of millions of people, over and above the casualties of the numerous wars that he started.

cabalamat didn't put Myhrvold in the same context as Hitler, you did. He made two distinct statements that you somehow connected. 1) I have not met Hitler but I know him to have been not a nice man 2) I believe Patent Trolling to be evil and therefore those that perpetrate it to also be evil. Personally I cannot disagree with either statement. Excusing any evil practice as 'a businessman whose tactics you disapprove…

I don't think you understand what context means. Who brought Hitler into the conversation, and why?

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#65

Post by gruseom »

DaniFong wrote: post #61
gruseom wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They make deals where they sell patents to East Texas shell companies but keep 90% of the proceeds from their shakedown lawsuits. That's what This American Life uncovered recently—they looked at just one (laughably illegitimate) patent, and found that hundreds of millions of dollars had been extracted using that one alone. I don't know how you could listen to that and not find the case devastating. If the broadcast w…

This is a good point, but far from complete. It is not like they are rolling in the proceeds. Word on the street is that the IV funds are not profitable yet. Also, inventors, who they purchase patents from, are in fact getting checks in the mail. So at least one of the following are true: - They are paying inventors (patent holders) too much - Nobody should pay inventors at all - They should be more aggressive in acq…

I admire a good contrarian defence. With respect, though, I think it goes off the rails here:

And they're being scapegoated not because they might be a patent troll, but because they are a publicly identifiable organization with public inventions and activities, and public advocacy

From everything I've seen, they're being scapegoated precisely because they are a patent troll. And rightly so, because the end doesn't justify the means.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#66

Post by peterpathname »

jhartmann wrote: post #44
justatdotin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wind and solar aren't the answer either, or you wouldn't be having this discussion because it would already have been deployed." I accept that these aren't 'solutions' for those who control the old energy industries and related power structures that are still dominant, but the logic on display here is fundamentally broken. Various forms of Solar, and bi-gas, are already deployed where I live. Tidal, geothermal and W…

Do the math, with advanced nuclear power (stuff we had working in the 60's and 70's, but was crap for bombs and upended the business model of existing nuclear which is roughly equivalent to giving the razor away at cost and making the money on the blades) you can hold all the energy you will ever use in your hand. A metal ball of Thorium is quite safe as well before it is used in a reactor. A molten salt reactor is a…

yes, I'm worried about waste. No, I don't accept assurances that it's all over in a few hundred years. yes I'm worried about weapons - U233 from the thorium cycle has been weaponised before. as with real nuclear reactors, the issue with the thorium fantasies isnt what comes out of the power reactor, but the leap towards weapons (materials, technology and capacity) that development towards these reactors would represent.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#67

Post by peterpathname »

tehabe wrote: post #54
dragonshed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wind and solar aren't the answer either, or you wouldn't be having this discussion because it would already have been deployed. The economics of all intermittent power sources make it unfeasible; Installing the necessary transmission lines to all those decentralized sites, the energy lost during transmission to and from storage, the costs of storing that much power, and the other inefficiencies of generating the powe…

Actually, decentralised power sources would make high voltage lines obsolet because you can build them where you need the electricity. Centralised systems need high voltage lines around the country. Energy density is not a good measurement I think. In theory the sun sends more energy per day than we might ever need but we can only make use of parts of that. This is improving but still, just a tiny part of it. The sam…

thats it. if all the nuclear promises come true, its still just offering to delay the inevitable

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#68

Post by jingo »

DaniFong wrote: post #60
jingo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you know him?" How does that matter? Maybe the issue the commenter is raising is not personal. Maybe it has nothing to do with personalities or generosity. Maybe he is raising the issue of IV's business model: further exploiting a broken system. Some might opine that such exploitation is not a good thing, and we should not condone it let alone support it. We can all make solid returns from patent trolling with ve…

As for whether knowing him matters, the question is not whether you know him personally, but whether you actually understand what he does or is trying to do. Honestly I think most people who pay judgement do not, but it is too painful to see otherwise sane members of the HN community scapegoating someone without knowledge. TerraPower is one of the most courageous and exciting approaches in technology today. It is abs…

First, the idea that IV is a scapegoat is an amusing one. IV is the world leader in patent trolling - that is what they set out to do. One of its co-founders in fact coined the term "patent troll" while watching the practice in play at Intel. IV are relative experts in the business of patent trolling, and are doing it on a scale never before attempted by any troll. So, if you mean that HN commenters are singling out IV as a scapegoat for all patent trolls, I do not agree. It is entirely reasonable for IV to 0have to to answer to the community on the subject of patent trolling. It is their core business.

If on the other hand you mean all patent trolls, including IV, are effectively a scapegoat for the systemic problems inside the PTO, then you might have a point.

With regard to tax collecting, invention is worth something for sure. Too many patents are used for defensive purposes only, but let's leave that aside. Having rights to an invention is commonly a necessary precursor for successful innovation. With invention, usually mutliple parties can lay claim to the same "invention". There is no shortage of "inventors". Rights to inventions that are never commercialized are always difficult to value. What are they worth?

Innovators are another matter. Innovators have to take on the risk. Successful innovators are relatively rare vis a vis inventors. IV is not an innovator. They do not bring products to market. That could change in the future, but as yet we have not yet seen anything more than PR stunts (e.g. donations of vaccine refridgerators). There's no reason to think IV will ever engage in manufacturing for the benefit of any inventor outside IV. IV's business is licensing. HN commenters are rightfully skeptical of any announcement that IV is anything other than a troll.

"They actually pay inventors."

Yes, IV pays inventors... if their implicit or explicit threats of litigation are successful... and then only after IV takes a cut. Law firms can do the same thing for inventors. But I never noticed anyone stating, "They actually do pay inventors." What's your point? Of course they pay inventors. If I ask a lawyer to find a licensee for my invention (or at least get someone to agree to a cash settlement out of fear of being sued), then yes, I expect to get paid.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#69

Post by DaniFong »

gruseom wrote: post #65
DaniFong wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point, but far from complete. It is not like they are rolling in the proceeds. Word on the street is that the IV funds are not profitable yet. Also, inventors, who they purchase patents from, are in fact getting checks in the mail. So at least one of the following are true: - They are paying inventors (patent holders) too much - Nobody should pay inventors at all - They should be more aggressive in acq…

I admire a good contrarian defence. With respect, though, I think it goes off the rails here: And they're being scapegoated not because they might be a patent troll, but because they are a publicly identifiable organization with public inventions and activities, and public advocacy From everything I've seen, they're being scapegoated precisely because they are a patent troll. And rightly so, because the end doesn't j…

Sorry! Good point.

What I meant to say was that if they are a patent troll, they are not the trolliest of the trolls. They are merely the most public.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#70

Post by tptacek »

DaniFong wrote: post #69
gruseom wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire a good contrarian defence. With respect, though, I think it goes off the rails here: And they're being scapegoated not because they might be a patent troll, but because they are a publicly identifiable organization with public inventions and activities, and public advocacy From everything I've seen, they're being scapegoated precisely because they are a patent troll. And rightly so, because the end doesn't j…

Sorry! Good point. What I meant to say was that if they are a patent troll, they are not the trolliest of the trolls. They are merely the most public.

The allegation that Planet Money is making is that while IV may not be the trolliest of the trolls, part of its business model involves arming exactly those trolls while concealing the relationship.

I want to find a way to rationalize what IV does (for different, dumber reasons; I just happen to like their book _Modernist Cuisine_), but the evidence we have from reporters looks very bad.

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