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US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

guardian.co.uk

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Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#61

Post by edoloughlin »

justincormack wrote: post #48
edoloughlin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course in this case most of the development is not happening in Ireland I'd say that very little (probably zero) development is done in Ireland, but I get the impression you think that development is the taxable activity (I don't know if it is or not). However, there are 1,700 people doing something in Ireland (from http://www.idaireland.com/google/index.xml , 1/2 way down): A site reliability/engineering team sup…

Google does not pay tax in Ireland either, even at low Irish rates. So while it is great that it employs people there and it might anyway, Ireland is integral to its tax evasion strategy, as is the Netherlands.

It doesn't pay very much (corporation tax), but it does pay: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/google-de... - it took me 3 seconds to find this.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#62

Post by amirmc »

patrickaljord wrote: post #59
amirmc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The problem with preventing the use of 'tax havens' is that there's no non-arbitrary way to decide if a company is truly using another country as a tax haven..." It doesn't matter whether a specific company uses tax havens or not. The problem is that tax havens exist (and there are reasonably good definitions of how to recognise one). Companies, who's role is to maximise shareholder value/profits etc, will use the…

> It doesn't matter whether a specific company uses tax havens or not. The only reasons there are tax havens is because there are tax hells.

No. Tax havens exist because people (and companies) want to hide assets. That's independent of the existence of any tax 'hell'. Unless you're of the opinion that all taxation is bad (an opinion I disagree with).

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#63

Post by danmaz74 »

patrickaljord wrote: post #57
danmaz74 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation is definitely not causation...

But there is a clear causation here. In order to keep increasing spending forever as they are doing, govs need tax revenue, the more money they are allowed to borrow, the more debt they can create. They couldn't create so much debt if they didn't have tax revenue to justify their ability to repay their debt. Problem is, at some point, if you want to keep on increasing spending and therefor your debt forever, you have…

Come on, no serious economist gives credit to Laffer's curve - until taxation goes over something like 70%. And it's incredibly easy to demystify: Just try to check how many times taxes were increased, and fiscal revenues increased. If we were on the descending slope of that curve, increasing taxes would decrease fiscal revenue.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#64

Post by weavejester »

patrickaljord wrote: post #54
weavejester wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO ranks the French health care system as the best in the world, and the expenditure per capita is less than Switzerland (at least in 2007), so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. I also suspect you'd have a hard time finding private companies willing to spend $9 billion on a particle accelerator with no foreseeable profits. I'm generally against subsidising any industry, but letting Google and Amaz…

> WHO ranks the French health care system as the best in the world, and the expenditure per capita is less than Switzerland (at least in 2007), so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. http://www.securite-sociale.info/ http://reachfinancialindependence.com/french-healthcare/ FYI: it's forbidden by law to leave social security in France and to encourage others to do so. Best system ever indeed, once you…

Those sources don't appear to quote any hard numbers, and don't seem to dispute the WHO's methodology, but then again I can't read French :)

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#65

Post by Nursie »

patrickaljord wrote: post #52
Nursie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I think that as a French citizen I pay too much tax and I'm glad Google and Amazon are able to get away with it. Even though their activities directly increase your own tax bill. You have an odd way of thinking. >> taxing Google and Amazon more wouldn't change anything for local companies. Of course it would, their tax avoidance games mean nobody else can compete. You can argue that lower tax for everyone is a goo…

> Even though their activities directly increase your own tax bill. You have an odd way of thinking. The French State creates € 12 billions in debt each month [1]. If you think them paying any more taxes would decrease my tax bill in any way, then you have an odd way of doing math. 1: http://www.planetoscope.com/comptes-publics/315-compteur-de-... > Of course it would, their tax avoidance games mean nobody else can c…

>> If you think them paying any more taxes would decrease my tax bill in any way, then you have an odd way of doing math.

Them paying more would either relieve the burden on other parts of society, slow down the debt accumulation (even just a little bit), or allow the government to spend more on public services. All of these three have an impact on your life. If you think it would have no effect at all then you have an odd way of doing math.

>> Are you seriously saying that the reason Google has no competition in France is because they pay less taxes?

Maybe, who knows? But what we have at the moment is market distortion and monetary advantages for multinationals that can play these games. Certainly the likes of Starbucks (who pay little to no UK tax) have a direct financial advantage against smaller operators and local chains.

>> As long as there is no low flat-tax but unfair and complicated tax system.

This is a pipe dream, and any flat tax I've ever seen proposed is highly regressive, loading the burden onto the middle classes (and away from the very wealthy). What I find most amusing about it is how the very wealthy have so many cheerleaders who are in effect arguing for higher taxes for themselves.

>> People will always try to avoid it.

Yes, but you seem to be supporting your own country getting screwed by large corporations and transferring that burden to yourself, French companies and French citizens.

>> Get rid of your insane tax system and you'll get rid of these special exemptions. Just like getting rid of alcohol prohibition got rid of the bootlegging problems.

It's not quite that simple unfortunately.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#66

Post by flyinRyan »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #11
beedogs wrote: post #3

So, let me see if I understand this: the US is going to bat for the big software companies who don't want to pay taxes in other countries, and yet I, an expat American, am expected to file an income tax return with the IRS every single year for my foreign earnings, which may be subject to dual-taxation if I make "too much." What a crock of shit.

It's not dual taxation. The IRS deducts the foreign tax paid. So if the foreign country has a higher tax rate, you will never pay US tax. I'm not saying it's a great policy, but it isn't as bad as it sounds. You can always renounce your US citizenship - think of it as a maintenance fee. Yes, draconian.

>So if the foreign country has a higher tax rate, you will never pay US tax.

If I live and work completely in a foreign country why would I ever pay US income tax under any circumstances at all? The US is one of two countries on this planet that expect people who's only tie is being a citizen (perhaps never having set foot there and not speaking the language) to file income tax and potentially pay a portion of their income.

Even worse, the US expects you to file with them the way you file in your country of residence. File join in the country you live in? You're expected to file joint with the US then. Which means your foreign spouse who has no ties to the US of any kind (outside of being married to a citizen) will potentially have to pay US tax on their income.

And worst of all, the tax is mostly an annoyance. The true problem is that you have to report every account you have signing power over. That includes pension fund. That includes your companies bank accounts that you manage (which is why an American will never hold such a position in e.g. Switzerland). Lots of banks also won't take Americans on as customers. They don't get enough to warrant dealing with US bureaucracy to report information on these accounts.

>You can always renounce your US citizenship

Which is what many people are doing. The US is one of the few nations on earth that people give up citizenship from.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#67

Post by flyinRyan »

hkmurakami wrote: post #12
beedogs wrote: post #3

So, let me see if I understand this: the US is going to bat for the big software companies who don't want to pay taxes in other countries, and yet I, an expat American, am expected to file an income tax return with the IRS every single year for my foreign earnings, which may be subject to dual-taxation if I make "too much." What a crock of shit.

"too much" being $80k last I checked, where you have to pay US taxes on any amount exceeding the $80k. (or wait, it might be that you pay the difference between your US tax rate and the foreign tax rate...)

You're correct. If you're married and file joint I think that number is $130k. So if a dual income family makes $180 that means paying tax, a portion of which was made by someone who isn't and was never American.

Even the Mafia was never so cheeky.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#68

Post by rdouble »

hkmurakami wrote: post #12
beedogs wrote: post #3

So, let me see if I understand this: the US is going to bat for the big software companies who don't want to pay taxes in other countries, and yet I, an expat American, am expected to file an income tax return with the IRS every single year for my foreign earnings, which may be subject to dual-taxation if I make "too much." What a crock of shit.

"too much" being $80k last I checked, where you have to pay US taxes on any amount exceeding the $80k. (or wait, it might be that you pay the difference between your US tax rate and the foreign tax rate...)

"too much" being $80k

The foreign tax exclusion for a single person is $97,600 in 2013.

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#69

Post by flyinRyan »

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #6

It talks about France. France is a machine of expending money right now, better said, of wasting money. I am living in France this Summer, a very rich and beautiful country with a hole in the pocket. French people love to life well, and someone else to pay the bills, the Germans, the rich, whoever but not them. Mr Hollande only want to do one thing, to raise taxes. But there is never enough money when you don't expen…

The problem is that Hollande is very left wing, yet France already had one of the best income equality ratios in the western world.

It might have been better if France got someone very conservative like Obama and the US got someone from the true left like Hollande (though he wouldn't get a single thing done in the US, it would be fun to watch people like Rush Limbaugh literally die on air).

Re: US blocks crackdown on tax avoidance by net firms like Google and Amazon

#70

Post by flyinRyan »

patrickaljord wrote: post #15
danmaz74 wrote: post #2

Let's see how this pans out. Maybe this time the UK will not play for the US team, given the outrage there about this issue, but I'm afraid that without a common EU position about this the US will be able to use their usual divide et impera tactics.

I hope the US wins. I'd rather this money stays with Google and Amazon than it goes to the EU states. Why? Because the more profit Google and Amazon make, the more value they produce for society as in more work, better technology, better life etc. What does the state do with tax money? It spends it badly and ends up creating more debt. So, it creates the opposite of value, negative value or debt, and crony capitalism…

>Because the more profit Google and Amazon make, the more value they produce for society as in more work, better technology, better life etc.

Yea, because trickle down economics works fantastic: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/business/12scene.html?_r=0

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