Revelations about the French Big Brother • Hacker News Board

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#61

Post by drone » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #6

It will be interesting to see how the French public react to this in comparison with Brits and Americans. Not to mention the Germans.

I'm waiting for the same EU HN users to start calling for the banning of all French citizens from the rest of Europe, and the blockading of all French online services, as they did with the US yesterday. Perhaps how all French citizens need to be punished so they'll force their government to change their behavior...

Maybe we'll see some German politicians talking about how bad French companies are for being complicit with their intelligence services and they need to make sure their citizens don't use any French services. But, I'm not holding my breathe - because, I'm sure that attacking France will do little for most politician's re-election chances over there.

[Edit: Down-votes? If you're going to disagree with me regarding the political opportunism and lack of criticism of France, then come out and say it.]

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#62

Post by tomelders » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:50 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #36

tomelders wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for what, with surveillance like this, how is there still crime and terrorism? either it's ineffective or they're overselling the capabilities or they're more interested in dissidents, and judging by the way activists and whistle blowers are being treated, i suspect this is the real reason these systems exist. EDIT: Or there's some other threat none of us know about and these systems are working perfectly at keep…

So the government is NOT trying to prevent terrorism but instead has setup these elaborate systems just to prevent activism and whistle blowing. You sure that aliens aren't involved somewhere in there ? The FACTS are this. The head of the NSA has testified in front of congress that over 50 potential terrorist acts were thwarted because of PRISM since 9/11 including bombing of the NY subways and stock exchange. And th…

The only real fact that we have in this context is that the NSA and POUTS are both willing to lie.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#63

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #30

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

> Snowden's "revelations" are completely unsurprising to anyone who has thought about this and the technology. I'm still waiting for him to reveal something actually surprising. To someone used to an abusive relationship, no abuse is surprising. "Oh, now he hit me with a metal club. Big fucking deal" That doesn't make it acceptable or non dangerous. So I wouldn't be waiting, like a mere spectator on something that do…

He didn't say "big fucking deal". A guy menaces you with a metal club. Then he hits you with it. That's a big fucking deal, and also not a surprise.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#64

Post by achughes » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:55 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #42

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

I hate, hate, hate comments like these. They serve absolutely no purpose other than saying I told you so . Yes, some of us understood the spying is broad, but I don't think most of us expected the cables to be tapped directly, and take all the data like from a firehose and store it all. How can you say even that doesn't surprise you? And even if it doesn't you think 99% of the people out there understood this? Does y…

No. OP is saying that he is not outraged because he wasn't surprised. He may not like the fact that it is happening, but he is not outraged. That was the point of the comment. A little bit of 'I told you so', and a little more of 'stop getting so upset, because if you really cared you would have known.' The only thing that changed with Snowden is that now you know about it.

But lets be honest, we are talking about spying. If we didn't already know, we should have assumed, because the point of spying is to know everything. What did everybody thing spying was? Because it certainly isn't legal. And now that everybody understands what spying entails I am supposed to be outraged? Yawn. Wake me up when the secret police ACTUALLY start taking people away. Because until till then, the NSA is doing its job, and that is spying however legal or illegal it may be.

But when that day comes, if history serves as any precedent, I'll know about it before you do.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#65

Post by PavlovsCat » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #52

PavlovsCat wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it's a fact that he said that doesn't make it a fact that it is so. Oh, and the irony of thinking otherwise and mocking "tinfoil"; I never saw anyone resorting to that who didn't strike me as projecting. It's for example a conspiracy theory to simply note that buildings don't just fall into themselves because of office furniture fires, but it's not a conspiracy theory to believe Saddam is about to unleash WMD wi…

> It's for example a conspiracy theory to simply note that buildings don't just fall into themselves because of office furniture fires, but it's not a conspiracy theory to believe Saddam is about to unleash WMD without even being able to name what he'd gain from it. It doesn't take genius to note that the deciding factor is not how realistic or dumb fucking stupid something is, or even physically possible for that ma…

One thing I find helpful to keep in mind that if you hang a wall full of analog clocks, they will synchronize. That's just what happens, without any of the clocks ever formulating a plan and the rest agreeing to it.

In the same way, it's just common sense that powerful entities, while also competing with each other, synchronize in keeping the unwashed masses in check. If ants can do it, so can people. That in itself doesn't make any old claim valid, but it means looking out for signs of such "unspoken conspiracy" is simply paying attention instead of acting like a goldfish (by which I don't mean to diss goldfish, just trying to make a point).

I expect snow in winter; that doesn't mean I may claim rain is snow, but it means I wont stare for 30 minutes when it does start snowing, and wonder what all the white stuff is. It also means I sometimes get irritated with people who do.

Yes, there are nutty theories and nutty claims. But they are so in their own right, not "because it's a conspiracy theory". This is exactly as logically valid as saying "that's a Jewish-sounding argument", to Godwin this thing for good measure.

Not that you don't know all of this, I just felt like rambling a bit. HN prides itself in having argument instead of memes, but it's still tinfoil this and tinfoil that without even blushing sometimes, which is the lolcat of the domesticated pseudo-intellectual if you ask me.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#66

Post by lucian1900 » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #38

lucian1900 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is still very useful to have proof. It dispels the image of conspiracy theory.

You needed proof to know the US government was spying ? It isn't some giant secret you know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency

Until recently, it was considered ridiculous to think that the NSA is spying on citizens of countries allied to the US. Now we have proof.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#67

Post by cpleppert » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 4:04 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #25

Ok, so it seems this thing that we call free society is rapidly going off the rails. In addition to GCHQ and this crap from France, Netzpolitik.org recently dug up some interesting info on the publically known activities of the German secret services, which include tapping sea cables[1] and listening in on 5% of DECIX traffic[2]. So we now know for a fact that, while the general populace was blissfully disinterested…

>>My feeling is that we have a very small chance to achieve a roll-back in (continental) Europe, because the uncovered actions of secret services here are much more at odds with the societal consensus on the accepted powers of the executive. For the big five prospects are IMO more bleak.

I strongly suspect that this isn't the case. The legal framework that governs the GCHQ is far less restrictive than that for the NSA. In the case of the DGSE the whole thing is basically apolitical and doesn't have any meaningful oversight. The FISA court at least approves the techniques of collection and then the targeting procedures. The NSA doesn't get ruled against often but it does happen (the case in 2011 that dealt with targeting procedures I believe).

Sure Germany and other countries which have a strong commitment to privacy dont' operate the same programs but seem perfectly happy to take intelligence data when it is provided.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#68

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 4:09 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #29

tomelders wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for what, with surveillance like this, how is there still crime and terrorism? either it's ineffective or they're overselling the capabilities or they're more interested in dissidents, and judging by the way activists and whistle blowers are being treated, i suspect this is the real reason these systems exist. EDIT: Or there's some other threat none of us know about and these systems are working perfectly at keep…

We have never been attacked by space aliens. The system works.

Actually, we have been. Twice. That you never heard about this is the proof the system works.

(don't ask me how I know about those attacks)

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#69

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #16

morsch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not it's surprising is totally irrelevant and you should stop pretending it isn't, if that is what you're saying. But you've got an interesting point in that the desire has always been to capture everything -- while the technical means to do it have been available for a couple of years. Along with a further shift in how people communicate towards easily moniterable technology, that is the crux of the matte…

This is a discussion on HN, not in a general public forum. Sure, the general public is probably surprised by what's been revealed but we should not be.

Isn't the point that no-one should be surprised any more?

We've recently had revelations suggesting that several intelligence services are essentially grabbing as much communications data as they can. Why would anything think if the US are doing it and the UK are doing it that anyone else with a reasonable budget and level of technical capability isn't?

Moving forward (even prior to this but certainly now) the assumption should be that if a country has the resources to have an intelligence service which can do this, they're doing it.

With regards to this the most likely constraining factor for any intelligence service is money and resources rather than morality, legality or anything else.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#70

Post by sentenza » Thu, Jul 04, 2013, 4:29 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #45

sentenza wrote: post #25

Ok, so it seems this thing that we call free society is rapidly going off the rails. In addition to GCHQ and this crap from France, Netzpolitik.org recently dug up some interesting info on the publically known activities of the German secret services, which include tapping sea cables[1] and listening in on 5% of DECIX traffic[2]. So we now know for a fact that, while the general populace was blissfully disinterested…

Why does surveillance necessarily have to lead to "actual science fiction dystopia?"

It is best to do the following thought experiment: What if all communications data was available to "somebody"?

Well, sooner or later, this "somebody" would use it for things that for them are no-brainers: For example fighting terrorism in case of "somebody" = law enforcement. But then what?

Unfortunately, a situation in which somebody has all the data and is allowed to use it for a limited number of purposes is not stable. There is just too much that you can do with it, making the temptation irresistible. It then really doesn't matter if the scope of usage is extended in a million small steps or a few giant leaps, because the end state of a system with humans and data is that the humans will use the data.

But obviously, not everybody will have access to the data. We start (now) from a situation in which there is an information access asymmetry between the intelligence community and the general public and there is no indication that the intelligence community will ever be willing to give up this privileged position.

So in the end, all the data is available and it is used for many purposes, but the number of those that have access to it is limited, and their access gives them certain advantages over everybody else. This is how, over the course of a few dozen decades, you arrive at a security-clearance based caste system.