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An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

krrb.com

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Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#61

Post by jonknee »

throwaway9848 wrote: post #50
acjohnson55 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean craiglist's users' content. Shouldn't the user have the right to do what they want with the classified ad they wrote?

Sure, they have the right to post their content anywhere they want, but after that it's CL's. Same is true with comments, posts on discussion/Q&A sites, etc.

http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use

> You automatically grant and assign to CL, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant and assign to CL, a perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, fully paid, fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), worldwide license to copy, perform, display, distribute, prepare derivative works from (including, without limitation, incorporating into other works) and otherwise use any content that you post.

Note, it's not exclusive. If you post it to Craigslist they get to use it how they see fit, but you can post it other places.

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#62

Post by stinkytaco »

potatolicious wrote: post #52
imgabe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whose data is it? Padmapper just scraped whole site for apartment listings. This is an action by the user to take their post, which they wrote, and redisplay it somewhere else. If I write an ad for a chair I want to sell, I should be able to post it to Craigslist and any other site I want to. The Krrb button is no different than the user manually copying and pasting her own content into Krrb's posting…

I don't think this is what's happening here - for either Krrb or Padmapper. It's important to note that Krrb and Padmapper both make the distinction that they're scraping facts , not posts. One is copyrightable, the other is not. You can lay claim to the sentence "I have a room in a 2-bedroom apartment for rent in Williamsburg, going for $1500" But you do not have the right to own the fact that there's a room for ren…

Does it matter that they are using Craigslist infrastructure to automate the process? Consuming bandwidth that Craigslist pays for and taking advantage of the hosting Craigslist is offering their paying customers? Sure, facts are not copyrightable, but if you took a stack of phonebooks from a recycling bin and starting selling them as your own, I think the company that printed the phones books might have an issue with that.

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#63

Post by gaadd33 »

throwaway9848 wrote: post #50
acjohnson55 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean craiglist's users' content. Shouldn't the user have the right to do what they want with the classified ad they wrote?

Sure, they have the right to post their content anywhere they want, but after that it's CL's. Same is true with comments, posts on discussion/Q&A sites, etc.

So if I post something on Facebook or on Stack Overflow, I have no right to repost that same content elsewhere on the internet? At what point did I assign copyright?

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#64

Post by Vivtek »

stinkytaco wrote: post #62
potatolicious wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is what's happening here - for either Krrb or Padmapper. It's important to note that Krrb and Padmapper both make the distinction that they're scraping facts , not posts. One is copyrightable, the other is not. You can lay claim to the sentence "I have a room in a 2-bedroom apartment for rent in Williamsburg, going for $1500" But you do not have the right to own the fact that there's a room for ren…

Does it matter that they are using Craigslist infrastructure to automate the process? Consuming bandwidth that Craigslist pays for and taking advantage of the hosting Craigslist is offering their paying customers? Sure, facts are not copyrightable, but if you took a stack of phonebooks from a recycling bin and starting selling them as your own, I think the company that printed the phones books might have an issue wit…

As I understand it, Krrb is not using Craigslist infrastructure - it is simply taking the post already in the user's browser because they navigated there in the process of entering the post, and copying the text out for reuse.

Craigslist can only litigate on that basis because they know Krrb doesn't have the means to defend themselves. That's not a public good.

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#65

Post by smackfu »

imgabe wrote: post #49
res0nat0r wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the same issue as Padmapper, just on a much smaller scale. Don't write code that will re-display/re-post content of a Craigslist post on your 3rd party website. I bet if the button were changed to just cut/paste an html link to .craigslist.org/post all would be well. This is just CL trying to keep their postings exclusive to their website of which they've spent many a time and money trying to build an…

The question is whose data is it? Padmapper just scraped whole site for apartment listings. This is an action by the user to take their post, which they wrote, and redisplay it somewhere else. If I write an ad for a chair I want to sell, I should be able to post it to Craigslist and any other site I want to. The Krrb button is no different than the user manually copying and pasting her own content into Krrb's posting…

Do you think Craigslist would have any issue with an app that let you post to both Craigslist and Krrb?

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#67

Post by stinkytaco »

Vivtek wrote: post #64
stinkytaco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter that they are using Craigslist infrastructure to automate the process? Consuming bandwidth that Craigslist pays for and taking advantage of the hosting Craigslist is offering their paying customers? Sure, facts are not copyrightable, but if you took a stack of phonebooks from a recycling bin and starting selling them as your own, I think the company that printed the phones books might have an issue wit…

As I understand it, Krrb is not using Craigslist infrastructure - it is simply taking the post already in the user's browser because they navigated there in the process of entering the post, and copying the text out for reuse. Craigslist can only litigate on that basis because they know Krrb doesn't have the means to defend themselves. That's not a public good.

The post I was replying to was grouping krrb and padmapper. I don't know much about krrb or what it does. Seems like a glorified copy past so I'm not sure how that exactly translates to a business worth putting this much effort into defending. Maybe I'm missing something.

But padmapper is clearly leveraging Craiglist's infrastructure for padmapper’s own benefit. I find that difficult to defend.

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#68

Post by pbsdp »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #43
colinsidoti wrote: post #21

The tone of this letter is horrible IMO. I understand you're angry, but I imagine this will piss him off more than rile him up. I'd rather see you take them to court with a strong case than start a public, one-sided flame war. There must be a syndicate of investors that realize it would beneficial for them in the long-run to see Craigslist lose the stronghold they have on classified's data. PG (submitted this) and Ga…

I think it's a good letter. Up until now, I wasn't aware that Craig's List had moved in such a contentious and litigious direction. It sounds like instead of innovating and improving their service, CL is spending its time trying to squash anybody who tries to add value to their product. They have a right to do what they want as a business, but I also have a right to judge their practices and protest with my voice and…

"... squash anybody who tries to add value to their product"

Add value? They're extracting value.

> I will be avoiding use of Craig's List's services until I feel like they are allowing people to innovate off their platform and ceasing to try to own their users' content.

Will you also be boycotting all books, TV, and movies until their authors grant unlimited licenses to use the content for whatever value-extracting purpose anyone wants?

Will you boycott your local businesses until they agree to let competitors post in-store advertisements?

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#69

Post by atacrawl »

samstave wrote: post #2

I used to have a great deal of admiration for Craig, and craigslist... It's all but dissolved. After his/their repugnant treatment of Eric/padmapper and their more than glacial acceptance of the fact the CL UI sucked and was actually punitive to the UX - and yet another example of CL just being jerks, I am pretty much completely devoid of any respect for Craig/CL. It's too bad, especially given how Craig attempts to…

I've never bought into this "nice guy" image Craig Newmark seems to have cultivated for himself. Between numerous interviews where he gives flippant, condescending answers to reasonable questions and the overly litigious actions of the company that bears his name, I don't have a particularly high opinion of the man and I'm not surprised by this latest episode with Krrb.

Re: An Open Letter to Craig Newmark

#70

Post by arikrak »

Craigslist is a poor website but since everyone uses them, everyone is locked into using them. Any site that helps people use Craigslist with other sites might cause people to eventually switch from Craigslist entirely. This applies to both finding listings and posting listings.

That's why Craigslist is so litigious, even on the posting ad side. It seems hard to justify legally, but they probably figure small startups won't be able to fight them in court.

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