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The IIT Entrance Exam

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Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#61

Post by rurounijones »

chetanahuja wrote: post #30
rurounijones wrote: post #24

Think of the lost potential of the people who may still be the cream of the crop but just outside the 2%. The logical part of me says that they should be building more of these academies (if they can without sacrificing quality).

They are building more as well as converting some of the existing non-IIT engineering schools to IIT status. More than 20 years ago when I took the IIT, the total number of students admitted was much lower (~ 2000) than the article states for today (~10000). That would seem like a 5 fold increase in number of seats in about 20 years. Definitely much faster rate of growth than the rate of population growth in India. A…

The problem I see is not to do with the education but the whole "I went to an IIT" leg-up that people get (Like ivy-leagers).

Just seems extremely unfair that the social outcome for getting into an IIT is so different for people of almost identical intellectual capability.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#62

Post by MagicWishMonkey »

casual_slacker wrote: post #6

It's so strange to be considered a "peer" to people who have spent years working harder than I can imagine at the same career path.

In my humble opinion, most Americans don't really appreciate what it means to be an American.

It's not something you can really comprehend until you spend time in a country like India or China.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#63

Post by simula67 »

jbarham wrote: post #25
pitchups wrote: post #9

As I was watching the Google I/O webcast last month, the one thing that struck me was how some of the most important products and services from arguably the most influential tech company of our times, were headed by IIT graduates: Amit Singhal, a Google fellow, who heads their search team and essentially rewrote the critical ranking algorithm in 2001, and a graduate of IIT Roorkee [1]; Sundar Pichai, who heads Androi…

Clearly these men are all very capable but would they have been able to have the same impact had they stayed in India? Given that they all did post-graduate study in the US and currently live in the US and work for an American company, I think their accomplishments say less about the quality of IIT graduates and more about the fact that a huge amount of human potential is being wasted in India.

>huge amount of human potential is being wasted in India.

Just a counterpoint : IITs are state funded, i.e most of the student fees are paid for by the government. Once they complete their education, do they not have a duty to give back to the people ? Remember, brain drain is a serious problem for countries like India.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#64

Post by kevinpet »

If these numbers are true, I think it points to an academic rip off far larger than the US student loan problem. If the coaching industry is $3.4B annually, and there are only 10,000 slots at the IITs, that's $340,000 per spot. It effectively costs more to attend the nominally state-funded IIT than an Ivy League school.

Of course, most of that cost is not paid by those who get in. If we assume that every one of those half million test takers spent $6800 for coaching, they're being severely ripped off. You'd have to assume that the average IIT entrant spends over 50x as much as the average unsuccessful test-taker before that comes down to even half -- and at that point, the IIT entrants are paying $175k.

Either the article is leaving off the some important details -- perhaps the number quoted for the coaching industry does not just include the IITs -- or this is an economic disaster that no one has yet noticed.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#65

Post by chetanahuja »

rurounijones wrote: post #61
chetanahuja wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are building more as well as converting some of the existing non-IIT engineering schools to IIT status. More than 20 years ago when I took the IIT, the total number of students admitted was much lower (~ 2000) than the article states for today (~10000). That would seem like a 5 fold increase in number of seats in about 20 years. Definitely much faster rate of growth than the rate of population growth in India. A…

The problem I see is not to do with the education but the whole "I went to an IIT" leg-up that people get (Like ivy-leagers). Just seems extremely unfair that the social outcome for getting into an IIT is so different for people of almost identical intellectual capability.

Just seems extremely unfair that the social outcome for getting into an IIT is so different for people of almost identical intellectual capability.

Unless you could quote a proper scientific study, that seems like a highly unsupportable assertion.

Just anecdotally, I know multiple people who chose not to go to IIT despite being inside the cut-off for one reason or another (e.g., not having a high enough rank to get into their preferred line of study) who've gone on to have extremely good careers nonetheless. Although admittedly, I'm struggling to think of any IIT graduates who did not end up with a solid to brilliant career, regardless of their actual academic performance while at IIT. Some to my great surprise! So what I'm saying is... there's not enough data to make a statement like you did.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#66

Post by monsterix »

tokenadult wrote: post #40

From the article: "Only two percent of students will be rewarded for their hard work. In 2012, Harvard accepted 5.9% of applicants. Top engineering schools MIT and Stanford had acceptance rates of 8.9% and 6.63%. The acceptance rate at the IITs, as represented by the pass rate in the JEE, was 2%. Every year, when the results are announced and the media swarms the accepted students, 490,000 students receive disappoint…

> The key, of course, is that many American students self-select out of applying to Harvard, and indeed don't self-select to submit an application to any "prestige" university.

Self-selecting out is true for IITs also. Let's not forget that IITs are focused purely on engineering stream and a bit on technology management courses. IVY Leagues on the other hand are broader universities covering other streams such as liberal arts, life sciences, law etc.

If you compare the size of student-body which grows up each year (the ones qualifying 10+2 intermediate school) in India, and the fact that only a fraction of it applies and appears for the IIT entrance, you will get a clear comparison on which university has the lowest acceptance rate going by this metric too.

However, let's not blind ourselves with ratios and percentages alone because absolute numbers have a bearing on competitiveness too.

I remember there was a study a few years ago suggesting that countries like India and China are so populous that the number of honor kids they produce is higher than the number of kids we have in west [1]. Also check out this video which shows how IVY leagues form a backup option for most IITians with Vinod Khosla, Narayan Murthy et al.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK3rX1sg5kg

Not saying that universities like Harvard do not have a high enough benchmark or a lesser quality admission process, but if we were to compare quality of entrance exam/criteria of only the engineering streams of Ivy Leagues/others universities with what the IITs have, then the latter would be right on top.

[Disclosure: I am an IITian, so apologies for the conflict of interest w.r.t to my statements above.]

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/06/26/are-your-kids-smar...

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#67

Post by BhavdeepSethi »

Balgair wrote: post #15

I have been collaborating with 2 IIT grads, one Mumbai, one Calcutta. Holy cow, these guys are mot-ti-vated! They may not always be the inherent smartest guys, but man they can pack in the hours. I know that working smart is better than working hard but they sure as snot can work hard. Here in the US, I think we have an ok balance of the work and sports and school aspects. There in India, if your name gets published…

I think that's the case with most Indians and our education system is to blame for that. The entire schooling system is very competitive. If you're not aiming to be an engineer or a doctor, then you're wasting your life. Slogging day-in day-out becomes a part of our life. The result is a bunch of people who may not be very smart (not much practical knowledge) but can more than make it up with hard work. While this is a sure way to success, you lose a lot along the way. There is absolutely no work-life balance. Sports is seen as a recreational activity, not a profession. India is pretty much missing on the Olympics or any global sports chart because of that [except where Cricket is involved. We take that seriously:)].

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#68

Post by bvssatish »

kevinpet wrote: post #64

If these numbers are true, I think it points to an academic rip off far larger than the US student loan problem. If the coaching industry is $3.4B annually, and there are only 10,000 slots at the IITs, that's $340,000 per spot. It effectively costs more to attend the nominally state-funded IIT than an Ivy League school. Of course, most of that cost is not paid by those who get in. If we assume that every one of those…

Just FYI

- In India each state has it's own Under-Grad entrance test

- Lot of high school students just don't try for IIT Entrance Exam

- Would approximate that there are least 4-5 million students who enter poll of undergrad just for engineering

- That $3.4 B number in not just for the entrance exam it includes High-School curriculum and in many cases boarding

- Would guess the national average for two years for IIT focused cost is about $1,500 including boarding

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#69

Post by chetanahuja »

kevinpet wrote: post #64

If these numbers are true, I think it points to an academic rip off far larger than the US student loan problem. If the coaching industry is $3.4B annually, and there are only 10,000 slots at the IITs, that's $340,000 per spot. It effectively costs more to attend the nominally state-funded IIT than an Ivy League school. Of course, most of that cost is not paid by those who get in. If we assume that every one of those…

I'm willing to bet a dollar that the $3.4B number is wrong or at least misleading. A very likely mistake is that the article is quoting the total size of the entire academic coaching industry in India. Engineering schools admission is not the only highly competitive field in India.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#70

Post by th3iedkid »

rurounijones wrote: post #61
chetanahuja wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are building more as well as converting some of the existing non-IIT engineering schools to IIT status. More than 20 years ago when I took the IIT, the total number of students admitted was much lower (~ 2000) than the article states for today (~10000). That would seem like a 5 fold increase in number of seats in about 20 years. Definitely much faster rate of growth than the rate of population growth in India. A…

The problem I see is not to do with the education but the whole "I went to an IIT" leg-up that people get (Like ivy-leagers). Just seems extremely unfair that the social outcome for getting into an IIT is so different for people of almost identical intellectual capability.

Given today's scenario the quality of engineers is dipping.So does the gap and thus even a decently meritorious engineer looks much better than the rest of the crowd.An old study http://careers.learnhub.com/news/544-90-percent-graduates-an... shows how poor the rest of the colleges are.That said the socioeconomic gap keeps widening and thus opinions.Opinions are hard to break lest someone disprove.Vast majority of indian IT companies still run aptitude test to figure out who squares out a big number faster and cracks the tell-tale puzzle quicker rather who can understand the system and engineer better.So are their parent's prioties:education is BIG investment and they only want returns not knowledge.Well then these IT companies pay for a 12 hour code/test/typo job!And these companies are PRESTIGIOUS in india!!
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