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We were wrong

kickstarter.com

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Re: We were wrong

#61

Post by shiftpgdn »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

Two things: One. Freedom of speech is a first amendment right to protect you from censorship by the government and the government only. Anyone, anywhere running their own service is fully within their rights to boot you off.

Two. A sleazy pickup artist book isn't anywhere remotely near any previous works of banned art. I would consider something as awful the film Cannibal Holocaust to be fine art before I used that term for some idiotic kickstarted pick up artist book.

Re: We were wrong

#62

Post by wmeredith »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

Freedom of Speech goes out the window when you start dealing with private enterprise. Kickstarter doesn't have the power to "ban" anything more than you or I. They're just addressing the kind of content they don't want to be promoting, which is totally within their rights.

Re: We were wrong

#63

Post by lclarkmichalek »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

They're not banning anything. They're banning it from their platform. They don't get to say "You can't publish that", but they do get to say "You can't publish that in collaboration with us". There is nothing stopping the author of this work to raise funds via alternate means, which is much as it has always been. I imagine most all controversial works have had problems getting published, but I don't think people cry out "censorship" whenever a publisher rejects a work on vaguely moral grounds.

Re: We were wrong

#64

Post by atwebb »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

I see exactly where you're coming from but KickStarter isn't the only outlet, there are plenty of others available.

It's murky water to tread anytime you start excluding groups but you also have to preserve the community that you build and do what you believe to be correct for it. The owners and admins of KickStarter are stewards of that community and have a duty to it. If, after very careful consideration, it is deemed that this material would hurt this particular group then it's fine by me if they stopped it. The creatives will go elsewhere because there are other places (this is key).

Random House doesn't get into the business of publishing books on many different subjects but plenty of other publishers do.

Re: We were wrong

#65

Post by lewispollard »

xauronx wrote: post #4

Jesus, seems like an over reaction. Books and guides like this are nothing new, and should be taken in context/used appropriately. A nerd in a club is going to take this brash advice like: "All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye…

I would guess that people buying a seduction guide don't really understand 'women' - in that they believe that women are somehow different, unapproachable and alien to them. The misogyny stems from the book not teaching these people that women are equal and worthy of respect, but instead teaching them to ignore consent and be an 'alpha bro' stereotype.

Re: We were wrong

#67

Post by [deleted] »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

[deleted]

Re: We were wrong

#68

Post by garethadams »

deong wrote: post #36
blairbeckwith wrote: post #6

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person? I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a genera…

Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing her to touch your exposed penis is, I think, sexual violence by almost any reasonable standard.

If a girl is already in a private, intimate setting with you after you've met her a few times – like that part of the guide relates to – then sex probably isn't too much of an unreasonable assumption.

Of course that counter-article cherry-picked quotes from all over the guide and threw them together to make it sound like these were all things you should do on first meeting someone

Re: We were wrong

#69

Post by Anderkent »

maximilianburke wrote: post #12
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

I don't see how that's a 'rape manual' quote if it is clearly in a section labelled sex. I.e. you both already have the expectation of sex - are in a bedroom or whatever. It's obviously clear that he doesn't suggest such behaviour in a different context.

Re: We were wrong

#70

Post by tomjen3 »

lewispollard wrote: post #48
hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

Well of course the misogynist doesn't believe he's misogynistic. Why should his opinion matter more than the hundreds of people who complained?

Truth is not subject to voting and Kickstarter has proved that they consider women inferior and in need of protection by banning this type of content.
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