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Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

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Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#61
post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

It's a good question but the story of the frog in the slowly heating pot of water comes to mind. At what temperature should the frog really get worried?

It's too late for the general population in the US. But there are very smart folks with means that have hedged their bets by having estates in multiple countries.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#62

In all the talk about this, I haven't seen any proposed solutions. What is the way out? Stop all domestic surveillance? What about US Citizens in other countries? What about foreign nationals inside the US? Increase oversight? What about for rare unambiguous national security threats? How can that be enforced? And it sounds a lot like learned helplessness, but what is an individual supposed to do?

Don't cause waves, pay taxes.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was responsible for passing these laws/articles in 1920s Soviet Union? One difference here is that when the USG says "well it's all done according to law", that law was written and passed by an institution who at least nominally represents and is elected by the people. I don't know if the same can be said of the USSR.

The problem now is that who you vote for doesn't represent you. They represent themselves, their donors and their social class/circle. They've also sworn an oath to the Constitution, then passed laws that are against that oath. For all practical purposes the "classical constitution United States" that we were taught in school and media doesn't exist anymore. But we pretend it does for pragmatic reasons.

> For all practical purposes the "classical constitution United States" that we were taught in school and media doesn't exist anymore.

The Constitution never existed as anything more than an idea, and it has force and meaning to the exact extent to which the people choose to give it force and meaning (the same as any other law.)

Laws, including basic laws like the Constitution, aren't magical and self-enforcing; they are real or not to the extent that people give them effect. The idea that "the Constitution protects" this right or that limitation on government's power is the exact thing which guarantees that those things are not protected -- either people protect them by insisting on them, or they are not protected at all. The Constitution is, at most, a statement of intent about what the people will insist upon, and it loses credibility when the people are passive and don't follow through.

I believe that one of the reasons that Jefferson thought it was necessary for the Constitution to be rewritten and readopted every generation is that he recognized that the slide into passivity and lack of ownership of the Constitution was a natural trend that would, over time, render any Constitution into a dead letter.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#64
post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

Who was responsible for passing these laws/articles in 1920s Soviet Union? One difference here is that when the USG says "well it's all done according to law", that law was written and passed by an institution who at least nominally represents and is elected by the people. I don't know if the same can be said of the USSR.

> One difference here is that when the USG says "well it's all done according to law", that law was written and passed by an institution who at least nominally represents and is elected by the people. I don't know if the same can be said of the USSR.

The USSR was also nominally run under laws, which were notionally written and formally adopted by an institution which at least nominally represented and was elected by the people, and no doubt for any particular policy the regime could point to some justification in some provision of the Constitution and laws for the authority to carry out the action.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#65
post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

> I'd say there's nothing that the minority can do (if it matters I'm not from the US)

No, not at all. The situation is still all well within the US Constitution in the sense of want people "can do". In particular, as I will outline, there is a very fast, simple solution well within what "the minority can do".

Background: In the US Federal Government, there are three branches, executive (e.g., headed by the president), the legislative (i.e., Congress), and the judicial (with the Supreme Court).

In the case of the Snowden leaks, the actions Snowden was objecting to were by the executive branch which (more or less) was following laws passed by the legislative branch and signed into law by the executive branch. So far so good, that is, within the Constitution. Note that the judicial branch is not involved in passing or signing such laws and so far has not been involved in this whole matter.

But looking at the laws and what the executive branch did that Snowden revealed, a "minority" might conclude that the Constitution was violated. Really, still, so far so good because it's not up to the legislative or executive branch to determine if the Constitution was violated. It's been common throughout US history for the legislative branch to pass laws and the executive branch to sign and use those laws but later the US courts, usually including the US Supreme Court, to find that the laws were "unconstitutional" and strike them down.

So for what a "minority can do" in this case? Sure: Bring a law suit in the judicial branch where the suit claims that the Constitution, e.g., First or Fourth Amendment, was violated. Typically the case (I don't know the details of the process) makes it to the US Supreme Court. For the role of a "minority", in principle only one person need bring the case.

We should guess that people highly concerned with the situation leaked by Snowden will bring such cases. So, we will look for the ACLU and the EFF. But now we also see that Google is bringing a case. The legal costs for bringing a case might be significant, but there are plenty of organizations and individuals with much more than enough money to pay for those costs. Likely cases will be brought.

My guess is that much of the relevant laws will be struck down.

So, why has the judicial branch or the Supreme Court not yet struck down the relevant laws? Because they don't do that; instead, there has to be a legal case brought.

In all of this, the Supreme Court will act very cautiously. And in principle there is nothing important to keep them from acting quickly.

Net, so far the US Constitution is working just as intended. No riots in the streets are needed yet. We just need for some cases to be brought. That the laws mandated a lot of secrecy may have helped slow the bringing of cases, but likely Google, Microsoft, and some individuals have plenty of 'legal standing' to bring suitable cases.

So far the legislative branch passed some laws. They can do that. The laws can later be found to violate the Constitution and even then we don't line up the people in Congress who passed the laws and shoot them. Similarly for the executive branch: Once Congress has passed a law, the executive branch can sign it and use it.

Net, there is only one branch that can say if a law is constitutional or not, the judicial branch, and so far apparently no suitable case has been brought and the judicial branch has yet to speak.

Indeed, I have a letter drafted to my members of Congress but have not sent it because the letter really just claims that the relevant laws were unconstitutional, and for the members of Congress such claims are nearly irrelevant.

Net, we just need a suitable case in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will have no difficulty at all understanding all the relevant issues, and that court has plenty of ability to slap down laws passed by Congress and signed and used by the executive branch. Slapping down unconstitutional laws is much of just why the Supreme Court is there, and they are 100% fully aware of that point.

Some of the recent appointees to the Supreme Court are quite 'liberal', but nearly always they are plenty bright and will see the constitutional issues in the activities Snowden described with crystal clarity and intense concern.

The fight over the constitutionality of the relevant laws is not nearly over and, indeed, has yet to begin but apparently is about to begin. Don't bet on those laws coming out whole.

In particular the Constitution says nothing about violating the Constitution with secret orders of the executive branch based on wacko laws and approved by a secret 'court' of persons appointed by a member of the judicial branch with secret oversight by committees of Congress. Maybe the people who dreamed up this wacko nonsense thought that they were clever, but they were not: What they constructed has nothing to do with the Constitution, and the Supreme Court will have no difficulty at all seeing this point.

If the Supreme Court strikes down the laws, they will be gone -- out'a here. And that's just the way the Constitution says the process is supposed to work.

We're a government of laws, not men: What matters are the laws, not what Presidents Bush and Obama say, what General Alexander says, what the FISA 'court' says, or what the Intelligence committees of Congress say. Instead what matters here is what laws the Supreme Court says are constitutional.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#66
post #15

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

The second problem with "nothing to hide" is that it's really "nothing to hide based on today's laws". Laws change. Things become illegal or looked down upon that were previously just fine. What you did with a peaceful conscience today could be used to throw you in jail in 20 years. The third problem is that due to the complexity of the penal code, this is already the case. You have already done stuff in the last 10…

Everyone keeps saying that everyone has committed a jail-able offense if you just look hard enough, but no one has any examples. I'm not denying that it's true, I just have no response if someone says, "like what?"

Are there any examples of crimes that many people have probably committed? Maybe software piracy, but isn't that just a fine? And I hope that isn't the only example.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#67
post #59
post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

As you're concerned with the spirit of laws - your parallel is much in the spirit of 'Godwin's law' and ahistorical to the point of being specious. The USSR was a totalitarian single-party state that engaged in many decades of brutal mass repression of its population. The US is a constitutional democracy where laws are formulated, enforced and interpreted by independent branches of government, two of them elected. Th…

The US is a constitutional democracy

Actually, it's a constitutional republic.

But my real concern here is with the "constitutional" part, because most reasonable readers seem to agree that the PRISM surveillance violates the Constitution. Yet the federal government only seems concerned about Constitutionality when it suits them, (literally) laughing it off otherwise:

CNS: Madam Speaker, where specifically does the Constitution grant Congress the authority to enact an individual health insurance mandate?

Pelosi: [Giggles] Are you serious? Are you serious?”

CNS: Yes, yes I am.

Pelosi: [Takes question from another reporter.]

So I'm concerned that the degree to which we're "consitutional" at all is becoming increasingly tenuous.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was responsible for passing these laws/articles in 1920s Soviet Union? One difference here is that when the USG says "well it's all done according to law", that law was written and passed by an institution who at least nominally represents and is elected by the people. I don't know if the same can be said of the USSR.

> One difference here is that when the USG says "well it's all done according to law", that law was written and passed by an institution who at least nominally represents and is elected by the people. I don't know if the same can be said of the USSR. The USSR was also nominally run under laws, which were notionally written and formally adopted by an institution which at least nominally represented and was elected by…

I am asking this out of genuine interest and lack of knowledge - was there a representative legislative body in the USSR in the 1920s?

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#69
post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

There is 'the law' and 'the rule of law'. The former without the latter is pointless, and is what existed in the Soviet Union. The worrying bit about the current state of the US is not the law itself, as much as it's the erosion of the rule of law: concepts such as due process, meeting your accusers in a disinterested court, equality before the law etc. being eroded.

...not to mention: knowing what the law is in the first place.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#70
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gulags and concentration camps weren't set the same day they set the surveillance. Those came afterwards.

Indeed. Making the causal link all the more slippery.

The point I'm trying to make is that having surveillance in place gives them the power of effectively building such camps later.
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