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Javapocalypse

jz13.java.no

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61–70 of 129 posts

Re: Javapocalypse

#61

Post by namdnay »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #36
StavrosK wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in Python you never silentrly ignore all exceptions (well, you can, but it's a big no-no). You can just opt to not handle them, but they'll crash your program. It's a tradeoff, as I know which exceptions are likely to become a problem and which aren't, and I can choose to handle the relevant ones and let it crash in the rare case that an exception I didn't think likely occurs. In Java, I have to handle malformed…

The reason is that Java is designed for enterprise, where "I know which exceptions are likely to become a problem and which aren't" cannot be trusted. With giant code bases and mediocre developers you kind of need to have checked exceptions or you'll have exceptions popping up in the most unexpected places. (I'm a Python dev and hate Java)

Unfortunately, all the really enterprisey Java stuff completely kills that: now that everything is injected you lose all the compile-time protection that is the point of using Java!

Re: Javapocalypse

#62

Post by kamaal »

bru wrote: post #14
StavrosK wrote: post #12

This is irrelevant, but I just had my first Java experience yesterday. I decided to make an Android app, it's a simple remote control for hobby projects (Raspberry Pi/etc) that gives you a customizable UI with buttons that perform API calls. It'd be pretty simple to do in Python, which is the language I am proficient in, but Android development sounds fun so I wanted to get started in that. Creating the UI was easy e…

>What attracts people to the Java world? Portability, security (automatic memory, static typing, etc.): you cannot bore a hole in your feet when shoving a nail. And backed by a huge company. Relatively fast. More reasons there: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyJavaIsGreat > exception-related problems A common hack it to wrap your code in a dumb try/catch block at the uppermost level. That way there is no scope-related probl…

Joke?

The only reason why large shops are attracted to the Java world is because the endless supply of low cost developers and a tooling ecosystem which helps such developers survive in that ecosystem.

That is the No 1 reason every manager I've know has ever given for using Java.

Re: Javapocalypse

#63

Post by Nrsolis »

Espenhh wrote: post #7
tommorris wrote: post #5

The JavaZone people do great trailers. Lady Java - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk3qkQROb_k The Streaming - http://jz11.java.no/trailer_video.html Java 4-Ever - http://jz10.java.no/java-4-ever-trailer.html

We have collected all the previous videos at the "videos-tab" on the web page as well: http://jz13.java.no/videos.html There are some great talks from last year's conference there as well, many of them in English. The one by Tim Berglund about Git is great!

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.

That was the best video for ANY computer topic I've ever seen. HILARIOUS.

I'm going to be smiling the rest of the day.

Re: Javapocalypse

#64

Post by pkolaczk »

RivieraKid wrote: post #48
StavrosK wrote: post #12

This is irrelevant, but I just had my first Java experience yesterday. I decided to make an Android app, it's a simple remote control for hobby projects (Raspberry Pi/etc) that gives you a customizable UI with buttons that perform API calls. It'd be pretty simple to do in Python, which is the language I am proficient in, but Android development sounds fun so I wanted to get started in that. Creating the UI was easy e…

What you described is mostly a problem of the standard library. Sometimes it's too low-level and it's better to use 3rd pary libraries for things like HTTP. There should definitely a way to create urls without having to check exception (ie. it would throw a RuntimeException that doesn't need to be checked). Java 7 also lacks very useful features like lambdas, mixins, nested methods etc. However, Java is a good choice…

Scala is such a language, at least to me it was a pain to go back to Python after learning Scala. And Scala's tooling is IMHO better than Python's these days, although still not as smooth as Java's.

Re: Javapocalypse

#65

Post by transfire »

The sad irony is that it is the termination of COBOL that could actually bring society to its knees. If Java died, it wouldn't take long for all that code to be rewritten in Go. But how many COBOL programmers do you know?

Re: Javapocalypse

#66

Post by ChikkaChiChi »

famousactress wrote: post #56
AYBABTME wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is verbose. Tooling is great, however. For exceptions, there are two types. Checked exceptions and runtime exceptions. * Checked exceptions need to be explicitly handled in your code, or it doesn't compile. * Runtime exceptions can just happen, you don't need to check them. I personally don't really like the runtime exceptions because they can hide in thousands of place and throw when you don't expect it. Howeve…

Yeah, this is the argument I got tired of and why I jumped ship out of developing in Java for over a decade: "Java is pretty painful, but don't worry.. the tools are so good you don't have to write much code."

This blows my mind and this may be the reason I have so many problems dealing with frameworks of any kind.

If I am writing live code, I...want to write code. I don't want something to do it for me. If its in a language I am comfortable with I can generally write it more effectively than a tool in a toolbox and know how to fix it when it breaks.

Maybe I am just a control freak.

Re: Javapocalypse

#67

Post by kyllo »

6ren wrote: post #54
kyllo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a batteries-included, statically-typed language that's safer and harder to get wrong than C/C++, but faster than any dynamic language, and it has a fast, high-quality JIT compiler with well-written warnings and errors. Overall it's a very safe choice. Unfortunately its extreme object-orientation, lack of type inference and polymorphism, lack of first-class functions and anonymous functions, and awkward error han…

Great and fair summary. But what do you mean by lack of type (...) polymorphism?

Type inference = the compiler being able to figure out what types your variables, function arguments, and return values are without you having to explicitly tell it.

Polymorphism = the ability to write one function that works for multiple types. So for example, if you want to implement a sorting algorithm, you can write one function that is capable of sorting ints, floats, doubles, chars, and Strings. Java doesn't have this, so if you want to sort four different types, you have to write four functions instead of one, using overloading (you give all four functions the same name but they accept and return different types).

If you're interested in these topics I recommend learning a language like Scala, SML, OCaml, or Haskell. It will open your eyes to some of the very powerful features of higher-level and functional programming languages.

Re: Javapocalypse

#68

Post by RyanZAG »

StavrosK wrote: post #12

This is irrelevant, but I just had my first Java experience yesterday. I decided to make an Android app, it's a simple remote control for hobby projects (Raspberry Pi/etc) that gives you a customizable UI with buttons that perform API calls. It'd be pretty simple to do in Python, which is the language I am proficient in, but Android development sounds fun so I wanted to get started in that. Creating the UI was easy e…

The standard method for getting around this in the java world is to create 'sane' libraries (in the case of android http, something like http://loopj.com/android-async-http/ ) and then just use the library. The strong point of Java is just how many libraries there are - you often don't need to touch the actual built in Java APIs. On the server side (non-android) this has gone even further through the use of new annotation based libraries that generally autodiscover classes in your code, removing a lot of boilerplate.

One area in Java that is still incredibly annoying, however, is the ubiquitous getter/setter pattern that bloats all Java code for zero benefit to anyone.

Re: Javapocalypse

#69

Post by namdnay »

bru wrote: post #14
StavrosK wrote: post #12

This is irrelevant, but I just had my first Java experience yesterday. I decided to make an Android app, it's a simple remote control for hobby projects (Raspberry Pi/etc) that gives you a customizable UI with buttons that perform API calls. It'd be pretty simple to do in Python, which is the language I am proficient in, but Android development sounds fun so I wanted to get started in that. Creating the UI was easy e…

>What attracts people to the Java world? Portability, security (automatic memory, static typing, etc.): you cannot bore a hole in your feet when shoving a nail. And backed by a huge company. Relatively fast. More reasons there: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyJavaIsGreat > exception-related problems A common hack it to wrap your code in a dumb try/catch block at the uppermost level. That way there is no scope-related probl…

What's sad about Java is that the whole type-safety, compile-time-checks, minimal-runtime-surprises etc has gone out of the window since the DI craze, so now we have a platform that is as "unsafe" as Python et al, whilst still being relatively heavy to set up etc.. I guess there's still the advantage of having extensive libraries..

Re: Javapocalypse

#70

Post by talloaktrees »

StavrosK wrote: post #27
yareally wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Java turns you off, you could try Scala on Android. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5873229

I heard that that had very large startup costs due to the Scala VM (IIRC), which is unfortunate for what I'm making (a remote control app) :/

AFAIK everything on Android runs on the Dalvik VM.
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