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Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

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Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#61

For me, fallacies are a great tool for recognizing bad reasoning, which then provides pointers about how to expose it as such using a real argument. The fallacy itself doesn't constitute a counter argument. In a good debate, the fallacies themselves never come up but you can see how they have influenced the flow of argument. I really liked how it was put in the book Logical Self-Defense: To be valid, an argument has…

Actually, in a good debate, the fallacies are taken as (Bayesian) evidence, even if obviously imperfect.

Appeal to authority/experts: The fact that experts believe something is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable).

Appeal to tradition: The fact that things have historically been done a certain way, in a highly immodular system with complex dependencies, without catastrophic failure is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable).

Appeal/reduction to absurdity: Absurd ideas are usually false, even if the presumption can be overridden.

Genetic fallacy: Actually, the reason a conclusion was reached is exactly how you should judge it. (The true fallacy is thinking that you can pick an arbitrary reason a conclusion was reached -- e.g. snake dreams and Benzene -- rather than the best reason -- the later empirical confirmation of the model's predictive power.)

And so on.

Generally, the "Fallacy fallacy" is to jump from

"Hey, this piece of evidence isn't perfect (i.e. an infinite likelihood ratio, which is impossible anyway)"

to

"So I can ignore it."

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#63

Humans typically communicate in a way that resists shallow logical analysis. In a real conversation, people use words rather than terms, make utterances rather than sentences, and employ a wider variety of inference methods than modus ponens. A great deal of what is communicated and inferred in a conversation depends on context; the speakers and audience, their history, their shared knowledge and confidences, the fee…

Sometimes opinions are just opinions, sometimes anecdotes are enlightening, and sometimes generalizations, metaphors, analogies and other abstractions come into play.

Opinions are opinions. They should be stated and treated as such. If your "opinion" is stated in the form "x is y," then maybe you are the one who should be more conscious of the way people communicate. Sure, it's just an opinion; that's fine. Just don't expect anyone else to take it as a fact or agree that it's at all meaningful outside of your own head.

I don't agree with this assessment of the problem. Some people want to participate in discussions about how things are or how things work or why things were done or what actually happened -- discussions of fact and logic -- yet they want to inject anecdotes, generalizations, metaphors, analogies, and other abstractions.

It's irritating and intellectually backwards. But it's not going to stop, because most people less interested in what a discussion is about than they are about making sure people pay attention to their contribution, whether it's valuable, on topic, or other.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#64
post #61

For me, fallacies are a great tool for recognizing bad reasoning, which then provides pointers about how to expose it as such using a real argument. The fallacy itself doesn't constitute a counter argument. In a good debate, the fallacies themselves never come up but you can see how they have influenced the flow of argument. I really liked how it was put in the book Logical Self-Defense: To be valid, an argument has…

Actually, in a good debate, the fallacies are taken as (Bayesian) evidence, even if obviously imperfect. Appeal to authority/experts: The fact that experts believe something is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable). Appeal to tradition: The fact that things have historically been done a certain way, in a highly immodular system with complex dependencies, without catastrophic failure is evidence i…

> Actually, in a good debate, the fallacies are taken as (Bayesian) evidence, even if obviously imperfect.

I don't believe there is any reasonable definition of "good" where this is true. I think this characterization must rest on a misunderstanding of what the fallacies actually are.

> Appeal to authority/experts: The fact that experts believe something is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable).

Yes, but where that's true its not the fallacy of appeal to authority; the fallacy of appeal to authority is making an appeal to an authority where:

1. The cited authority is not actually an authority in the appropriate domain, or

2. The cited position is not the consensus of experts in the appropriate domain, or

3. In the context of deductive, rather than inductive, argument.

(Similar problems exist with your other arguments about fallacies as evidence).

Finally, your description of the "fallacy fallacy" is incorrect; it is not the (non-)fallacy of rejecting an argument because it is fallacious, it is the formal fallacy of affirming the negation of a claim because an argument containing a fallacy is offered in support of the claim.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#65
post #54
post #44

First, I just knew this was going to be about sexism. It's not because your feelings are hurt, that you receive intellectual immunity. If you are making a generalisation about an entire community, consisting of thousands to millions of people, you're going to need to justify that! You're free to say you've encountered some sexist people and I sympathise with that, sexism is terrible. But do not accuse me of being sex…

> But do not accuse me of being sexist. But you are. So am I -- we all are. Our culture and society are so riddled with pervasive sexism that we all exhibit sexist behavior at baseline, and the responsible thing to do is try and identify it within ourselves so that we can determine how best to negate it. If someone were truly lacking sexism, that would be an extraordinary claim, and would require extraordinary eviden…

Really? Because you perceive "our" culture and society to be "riddled with pervasive sexism," it follows that we all "exhibit sexist behavior at baseline?" And if the GP believes contrary to your claim, it'll "require extraordinary evidence to demonstrate?"

Ridiculous. Call yourself sexist if you'd like. And if the day comes when the Singularity puts us all closely in touch with each other's psyches, then you're free to tell us how sexist we've all been and we'll cry about it over a collective mug of chai.

Until then, perhaps you should go apologize to some women on behalf of the detriment all of us that have had on their lives today. I'll go let my girlfriend know what a pig I am (after I'm done cooking her dinner).

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#66
post #54
post #44

First, I just knew this was going to be about sexism. It's not because your feelings are hurt, that you receive intellectual immunity. If you are making a generalisation about an entire community, consisting of thousands to millions of people, you're going to need to justify that! You're free to say you've encountered some sexist people and I sympathise with that, sexism is terrible. But do not accuse me of being sex…

> But do not accuse me of being sexist. But you are. So am I -- we all are. Our culture and society are so riddled with pervasive sexism that we all exhibit sexist behavior at baseline, and the responsible thing to do is try and identify it within ourselves so that we can determine how best to negate it. If someone were truly lacking sexism, that would be an extraordinary claim, and would require extraordinary eviden…

There's a big difference between acknowledging the sexist baseline that exists in society, something which we should all strive to improve, and saying a certain subset is fundamentally (more) sexist, which is quite discriminatory and unfair towards that subset.

> And if you'll forgive me for saying so -- that's not about to come from someone who says things like "I just knew this was going to be about sexism."

No, I don't forgive you. This is a completely uncalled for.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#67
post #14

Far too often, logical fallacies are invoked in order to run away from an argument. I think this is the core point: the fallacy-lobbers are often looking to dismiss the entire conversation rather than trying to participate in it. There's no counter-argument; instead, the message is, "You're too dumb to bother with." That may sometimes be true, but it's never conducive to enlightening discussion.

I totally agree with his assessment of the misuse of the term ad-hominem too. An ad-hom fallacy is "your argument is wrong because you're an immoral moron", not "your argument is wrong for these reasons, you immoral moron". The latter is not very nice and probably shouldn't be encouraged, but it's not an ad-hominem because the insult is not part of the argument, just an unpleasant aside.

Also, there is nothing illogical about saying "this person or source of information has a reputation for being wrong or deceitful, therefore I will not be spending my time examining their claims." This is not really an ad hominem, just saying that due to the unlikelihood of an individual having anything to contribute, you are choosing to not engage their argument. I suppose this falls under "running away from the argument".

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? Because, while it's a perfectly valid argument to make, technically winning an argument is different to actually winning an argument. If most people don't know what a logical fallacy is, then you may as well be referring to the argument from magic pixies and fairy dust fallacy: they won't care or understand what you're saying. At worst, they'll assume you have an unwelcome air superiority about you and the…

I guess we would really have to drill down to what you consider "winning an argument". I am not sure you and I would agree on what that means. Is winning an argument convincing the person you are arguing with that you are right? Is winning an argument convincing a 3rd party that you are right? Is winning an argument whoever makes the greater number of valid points (debate style)? ... what does it really mean to win a…

In rhetoric, winning an argument is bringing people to your side. Personally I'd rather not have a bunch of illogical idiots on my side.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#69

Humans typically communicate in a way that resists shallow logical analysis. In a real conversation, people use words rather than terms, make utterances rather than sentences, and employ a wider variety of inference methods than modus ponens. A great deal of what is communicated and inferred in a conversation depends on context; the speakers and audience, their history, their shared knowledge and confidences, the fee…

Sometimes opinions are just opinions, sometimes anecdotes are enlightening, and sometimes generalizations, metaphors, analogies and other abstractions come into play. Opinions are opinions. They should be stated and treated as such. If your "opinion" is stated in the form "x is y," then maybe you are the one who should be more conscious of the way people communicate. Sure, it's just an opinion; that's fine. Just don'…

Opinions are opinions. They should be stated and treated as such.

Let's not generalize and remind to ourselves that there's a difference between a well-formed opinion and an uninformed opinion and those two are not equal just because they are opinions.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#70

Why does the victim in the article have to be a woman? Why can't it just be a random, genderless Internet denizen?

Because the whole article (and most of his site) is about defending poor defenseless women against hordes of oppressing logic wielding monsters.
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