The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#61

Post by zanny » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

crabasa wrote: post #37

This article is needlessly sensationalistic and the claim that there is a "shortage" of ultra-elite engineers illustrates a basic misunderstanding of math. But it does show us what a red herring the phrase "STEM" is. Let's not get bogged-down in STEM, or the differences between Engineering and Computer Science. There are massive differences both in the curriculum and quality of instruction even inside the field of CS…

Hey, I'm a CS grad who can write / has written a lot of C, C++, Java, C#, Python, and Javascript all pretty well (though I've been mostly using C++ / Python / JS so I'm rusty on the others) but I'm still job hunting after a year out of my BS mainly because I went to a small private school and I'm not the A talent this article talks about.

If people needed bodies that can just write (or test, or comment, document) mainstream languages, I shouldn't have this much resistance to job hunting in Philly and NY (I live in the middle of nowhere PA, which doesn't help) even when I offer to come visit in person.

I do think it is a maligned pipe dream amongst hiring departments of getting one of two things - 1. A 5+ year veteran a couple pay grades below what they are worth or 2. A rockstar supergenius savant that gradated college at 16 and knows every language from Cobol to Clojure. Going with someone like me (and I like to think of myself as an average SE) seems like settling to them, and they don't really need the work right now, they just want to exploit the productivity of a rockstar below their pay grade.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#62

Post by wavefunction » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

Maybe the real problem, is the quality of the recruiters and HR and business people? Sure, technical people find it very easy to dismiss non-technical folks (_especially recruiters_) out of egoism, but maybe there's some truth to it?

I keep hearing about "rockstar" this and that, but aren't actual rockstars (rather than professional musicians) known for being unrealistic assholes?

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#63

Post by wavefunction » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:18 PM UTC

jimhefferon wrote: post #12

In short: they want people with more than a C+ in C++.

Silicon Valley may be different, but for most of today's software development, you just need someone who can write managed code that's maintainable.

I'm willing to tackle any sort of technology project, but do we really need to reinvent the system bus? (A friend tells me about 6 months of meetings with the team arguing over piddling details in a simple system bus implementation that will probably get scrapped when the next team comes in.)

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#64

Post by pandaman » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:19 PM UTC

khuey wrote: post #41

jellicle wrote: post #32

Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. They pull down wages for the entire software engineering field by about 6%, say the studies. If H1B's are really the best software engineers in the world, why are they being hired for less than the average wages in the U.S. for average engineers? I appr…

Truly world-class engineers can be brought to the US on O visas. H1Bs are trying to fill a need for good or even great, but not amazing, engineers. Which is why it's a tragedy that so many of the spots go to shitty outsourcing firms for mediocre wages.

They could not get O visa for Linus Torvalds. Not amazing enough, eh?

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#65

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

Let's see:

1. Companies want to pay as little salary as possible

2. Programmers want to get paid as high a salary as possible

It's almost as if supply and demand was more than a theoretical concept!

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#66

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:22 PM UTC

I find it utterly ridiculous that people are complaining about a "talent shortage" when a typical 35-year-old software engineer can't buy a house in the Bay Area.

You tell a shortage by price signals, and useless bikeshedding executives out-earn engineers by quite a bit, but no one takes this (I hope) to mean that there's a useless-meddling-executive shortage.

This concept of a "talent shortage" is hereby banned until we're seeing 25-year-old software engineers buying third homes. When we're at that point, we can start worrying about this so-called "shortage".

There is a shortage of talented people doing useful things for society, but that's more of a job shortage than a people shortage.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#67

Post by pandaman » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #32

Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. They pull down wages for the entire software engineering field by about 6%, say the studies. If H1B's are really the best software engineers in the world, why are they being hired for less than the average wages in the U.S. for average engineers? I appr…

While it's true that the bulk of H1B are bodies for Indian body shops it's not a problem with H1B, it's the problem with the corrupt government issuing visas to body shops.

And it's true that H1B's are not the best engineers in the world. However many of the best engineers in the world are H1Bs.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#68

Post by incision » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #35

crazygringo wrote: post #10

I just always assumed this was the case, since everyone talks about wanting to hire only "A" engineers. But I'm not so sure we Americans should be "offended" by this. This article says: > The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up. But Silicon Valley doesn't want to just come out and say this, since it will sound offensive to a lot of American-born gr…

It's very definitely a pay issue. It's also a hiring issue: most of Silicon Valley deliberately makes it as difficult as possible to pass the hiring bar. There is one company with whom I've interviewed once, gotten an offer, and then been rejected when I applied later in a separate round after a year and a half doing other things. There's another company where I interviewed once, got an offer, did something else, int…

>Then there's a third company that keeps continually sending recruiters my way every so often despite rejecting me with no reason given every single time.

Same deal here.

Most frustrating is that I don't know how they found me as I don't have a public resume nor do I have any real idea what they're really looking for as they seem intent on being "confidential" (incredibly vague) about everything.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#69

Post by null_ptr » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:36 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #13

There's a big problem with the bar graph in the article. They are lumping Engineering Technology together with Engineering and Information sciences in with Computer Science. Engineering Technology is completely different from Engineering, just like CIS is completely different from Computer Science. Grouping those together is like grouping employment numbers for electrical engineers and electricians just because they…

"foreign born" is such a sneaky word, too. They could just as well be American citizens.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#70

Post by null_ptr » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 5:39 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #32

Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages. They pull down wages for the entire software engineering field by about 6%, say the studies. If H1B's are really the best software engineers in the world, why are they being hired for less than the average wages in the U.S. for average engineers? I appr…

> Except that this isn't the truth. H1B imported engineers aren't the best in their field, working for top wages. They're middling-low, working for below-average wages.

That's a blanket statement. There's a difference between the H1B mill contracting firms and H1Bs that are directly recruited by top companies, and paid on par with their American employees. The H1B mills give genuinely talented workers who fully deserve their positions a bad name, and that's a real shame.