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Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

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Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#61

Post by munin »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #44
anxx wrote: post #10

My Google interviewer was a HS-educated guy. My parents couldn't believe it. I tend to think - if he is as good at the job as me, what does his education matter? Why should I be offended that a HS-educated guy is in the same room with me? Education is meant to produce a difference in job performance; it's good for the worker, not directly to the employer. If I with my college degree can't get a better job than a HS-g…

I was on a team of about 10 that had at least one of each: HS dropout, HS diploma, bachelor CS, masters CS, Ph.D. CS. Most people weren't really aware - many came from other teams, so they didn't interview each other, and it just never came up. Everyone is just known by their title/responsibilities. There were two people in particular that were carrying a lot of that team. Not only did they do the most work, they fix…

I was a Sam in one of these stories once. Now I'm back in school, finishing my degree. In my version, the next few weeks were not happy ones for Sam.

You can ask yourself "how can it possibly matter" all day long but it doesn't matter. Just get the degree. You'll thank yourself later.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#62

Post by kelnage »

6d0debc071 wrote: post #22
mseebach wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a good developer in any language is pretty transferable. Google isn't going to care if you have to fumble for a few weeks getting comfortable with the syntax. The important bit is being a good developer, not which language.

Just a warning that, at least in the UK, I've heard that many companies do want you to know a list of quite specific programming languages and advertise for a programmer that does X language with Y years experience in it, rather than going after the computational knowledge side of things. So, you know, just check what you're going for first if you're still at the making decisions about what to learn stage. Can't spea…

As a software engineer in the UK - in my experience, the companies who want you to list very specific programming languages aren't worth working for. If they don't/can't understand that programming experience is transferable between languages, they probably aren't going to respect you for your skills either.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#63

Post by jmathai »

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

I generally agree with you. While I think college is drastically over priced (both in terms of time and money spent) it's the best option for the majority of people.

There are exceptions though. And even for those exceptions it's not as if going to college hinders them. At most it delays what they would have done had they not gone to college.

Truth is most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. Most probably don't have any marketable skills, aren't self driven enough to succeed without the safety net of a degree and don't have anything productive they'd do otherwise. College is the best option.

However, if you're out of high school, driven and have acquired valuable skills and want to turn that into a business then you better think twice about jumping right into college.

You're right, things do get complicated when you're 30 and with kids. It's 10x harder to go back to college OR start a company OR do the peace corps.

This isn't a debate about what the value of college is (skills, connections, experience, etc.).

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#64

Post by nsmartt »

readme wrote: post #30
stevewilhelm wrote: post #5

Sounds like he reproduced the college experience without a college. Good for him. But in general it's probably more efficient to just to go to college and get a degree.

That's why I'm going back to college. Frankly, you can do it the way he did. There are some pros and cons to that. Pros: * Cost $0 * Flexible Cons: * Probably more difficult than going to college. * You do it alone. * No networking opportunities, no new friends. * No credential. Still, I feel like I'm due for some serious topcoder sessions.

>Probably more difficult than going to college.

>You do it alone.

I actually consider both of these to be pros rather than cons.

I also don't really sweat the lack of credentials, but I can't argue that it's a pro with a straight face. It could certainly be used to weed out certain types of companies who place too much emphasis on a degree.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#65

Post by surano »

davidbyttow wrote: post #50
surano wrote: post #43

but the goal behind TopCoder problems should be improving thinking skills, not preparing interviews, I think. Because not the actions which determines more our future, but the intentions, I think

TopCoder problems quickly become pattern recognition and that becomes (brain) muscle memory. Knowing exact solutions to exact problems is not helpful.

it is helpful is most cases, but it has to be just a tool not a goal. a developer can reach the same thinking level just by working on its personal projects and by searching and reading about algorithms. However timed problems improve rapidity, which enterprise-oriented skill.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#66

Post by lsc »

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

>Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company.

Neither did this guy. Most of us without degrees did something similar to what this guy did; do a high dollar job for a while for a low-dollar wage, and eventually you build up enough reputation that you can get paid market rate.

>As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time to complete a degree before your life got more complicated. I've seen this happen.

Serious question: What is the downside to going back to school later?

I mean, sure, if you have someone giving you free money to go to school, yeah, that might be a time-limited offer, and you should take it. All other things being equal, you should take free money. But for those of us who have to pay our own way? seems to me like it would be much easier to go back to school when you can make a bunch of money working part time.

I mean, I don't know; I haven't seriously attempted to go to school. But I can tell you that when I work part-time, my hourly rate is more than 10x what I could get when I was 17, and trying to go to school while working. My cost of living isn't much higher than it was then, either. (biggest difference, probably is that I've gotta pay for health insurance now.) - I could live pretty comfortably and pay reasonable state school fees, contracting myself out 1/3rd of the time.

So from where I stand now, in my early '30s? it looks like going to school would be way easier than it was when I was 17, and thinking I needed a degree to increase my salary above sustenance levels. But then, I haven't seriously tried to go back, so I don't know.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#67

Post by gems »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #48
gems wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that it (exactly what I stated, nothing more) is most likely a manifestation of insecurity, rather than a product of anything that's not superficial (desire to help people, for example). I'm not telling you how to lead your life (a fiat), I'm offering an opinion with a suggestion. I give zero shits if what I said applies to you and you decide to stay on the same course. You should get that straight.

I feel like those statements against Google are also most likely a manifestation of insecurity. A lot of people want to work at Google, and there are always some who have to point out that it's not the ultimate prize, reserved for the best. After all, if it were a universal goal, and you haven't attained it, you must not be the best. The insecure person's solution? You don't work there, because although you could if…

It's true. I could just be bitter about not having a spot. But actually, I don't work in tech and I probably won't anytime in the future unless I'm forced. You can't verify that any of this is true, and that's fine.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#68

Post by aortega »

ultimoo wrote: post #8

I believe I am a good engineer, I have heard generally positive things about my professional work, have a college degree, etc. I am however terrified of programming challenges (topcoder, spoj, interview-street, etc.) I have tried solving some problems there using Ruby (back when it was 1.8.x, too slow for these kind of problems) and given up. Maybe I should give it a shot with C. Any ideas how to start, considering t…

Those programming challenges are silly, completely unrelated to real-life programming. Staying awake for 24 hs, writing ultra-optimized snippets of code that barely compile with zero documentation. Training exactly the kind of programmer that is useless in any organization except for programming challenges.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#69

Post by robomartin »

jmathai wrote: post #63
robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

I generally agree with you. While I think college is drastically over priced (both in terms of time and money spent) it's the best option for the majority of people. There are exceptions though. And even for those exceptions it's not as if going to college hinders them. At most it delays what they would have done had they not gone to college. Truth is most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. Mo…

There are other aspects to this issue. I'll preface this by saying that I know this will be offensive to a number of people. So be it.

American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. This is the reason Americans have a reputation for being ignorant. And that they are. I would venture to say that the average European secondary school graduate runs circles around American kids. I do realize I am generalizing to a grotesque degree. However, I have had the experience of hiring and working with a number of first year college students. A few surprise you because they are outside the norm: thoughtful, respectful, inquisitive and reasonably well informed. They generally came from families that valued education and somewhat old-fashioned cultural values. The rest? Well, let's just say they never lasted very long.

College, for some, is a required level of remedial education. Kids are coming out of schools valuing drinking, partying and drugs far more than hard work, dedication, the ability to communicate, think and write.

I have seen horrible examples of non-degreed individuals interacting in the context of a professional business environment.

So, yeah, you get to 30, 40 or 50 years of age and things are very different. The cool coder with the dreadlocks and no degree might still be able to get a job. However, unless you are a superstar or run your own business you will have to go up against others with degrees during your job search. In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#70

Post by randomdata »

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

> Don't be a moron. Get a degree.

According to the stats for my region, 56% of women and 45% of men start into a degree program, yet the degree attainment rate is only 25%. I find this attitude a little bit troubling when such a large percentage of the population are already trying and failing.

Given the costs – actual and opportunity – involved, unless you are certain you are in the top ~25% of students and can derive value from that expense, it seems rather foolish to follow said advice. Do what feels right for you and your situation. You know yourself better than anyone else and if you are truly doing what you want to do, there should be no regrets either way.

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