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Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

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Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#61

Post by swombat »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #35
mattdeboard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk ... because it's not full of retards... Complaining about sexism then using "retards" as a pejorative is just too ironic.

That caught me off guard too. I didn't realise anyone used the term anymore. Maybe the OP used it to make a point?

I don't call mentally handicapped people retards, I call them mentally handicapped people.

Retards, in my vocabulary, means someone who is not mentally handicapped but is a cretin. I could have used the word "cretin", in fact.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#62

Post by kmfrk »

Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

    Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy 
    jokes
"Just replace the sexism with homophobia! Boys will be boys!"

What kind of fucking zoo do you work at?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#63

Post by coldtea »

onemorepassword wrote: post #23
Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd... Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it…

>You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd...

And you may want to consider actually being more truthful about what you and your pals do do when you hang around.

(Not to mention the irony of 5 lines below, in your same comment, using language like "gives a shit").

>Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply.

Only for puritan cultures, that hold a clear distinction between work and normal life/play.

>Yes, I know this is how certain groups of men behave. It also happens to be the same men who's jobs are in danger of permanently disappearing, and this is exactly one of the main reasons nobody gives a shit.

This sounds like a reason to actually "give a shit".

Not sure how you justify yourself, morally, to care (or pretend to care) about "sexism" and "male jokes" while at the same time "not giving a shit" about people being forced into unemployment.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#64

Post by Swizec »

IsaacL wrote: post #60
Swizec wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying this isn't a gender issue. This is a basic human psychology issue. This is the way humans behave, regardless of gender. Gender doesn't even have anything to do with it, gender just defines the specific words used in the overall pattern. In the article men are making fun of a woman. Here on HN startups are making fun of lifestyle businesses. On r/programming Scala developers are making fun of Java developer…

"People poke fun at each other. It's how we establish groups. It's how we operate. We pick a trait and converge around it, as soon as we see a member of the species who does not have that trait, we make fun of them and maybe, just maybe, we eventually let them join the group." That's true. But the traits chosen are not arbitrary. There are some traits which are consistently used to exclude people from certain groups.…

I have reached the conclusion that this is a deeper issue that in this particular instance manifests itself as sexism.

Why treat the symptoms, let's fix the problem eh?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#65

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

swombat wrote: post #61
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That caught me off guard too. I didn't realise anyone used the term anymore. Maybe the OP used it to make a point?

I don't call mentally handicapped people retards, I call them mentally handicapped people. Retards, in my vocabulary, means someone who is not mentally handicapped but is a cretin. I could have used the word "cretin", in fact.

So you'd happily use the N' word, "fag," "gay," and similar since you can re-define them in your head to be just general insults, rather than associating negativity with the groups for which these words were originally used?

Sorry but we both know the reason you're using that word is because you want to paint them as being mentally handicapped which you perceive as "bad." You can pretend that isn't what you're doing but even if that is true that is how others perceive it, because when they hear the word "retard" they think mentally handicapped and you're using it as a derogative.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#66

Post by swombat »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #65
swombat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't call mentally handicapped people retards, I call them mentally handicapped people. Retards, in my vocabulary, means someone who is not mentally handicapped but is a cretin. I could have used the word "cretin", in fact.

So you'd happily use the N' word, "fag," "gay," and similar since you can re-define them in your head to be just general insults, rather than associating negativity with the groups for which these words were originally used? Sorry but we both know the reason you're using that word is because you want to paint them as being mentally handicapped which you perceive as "bad." You can pretend that isn't what you're doing…

Retard does not have the same "inappropriate" connotations in the UK as in the US (certainly it's nothing like using nigger or fag(got) in conversation as a pejorative).

But yes, I do think being mentally handicapped is "bad". Are you arguing that it's "good"?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#67

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

swombat wrote: post #66
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd happily use the N' word, "fag," "gay," and similar since you can re-define them in your head to be just general insults, rather than associating negativity with the groups for which these words were originally used? Sorry but we both know the reason you're using that word is because you want to paint them as being mentally handicapped which you perceive as "bad." You can pretend that isn't what you're doing…

Retard does not have the same "inappropriate" connotations in the UK as in the US (certainly it's nothing like using nigger or fag(got) in conversation as a pejorative). But yes, I do think being mentally handicapped is "bad". Are you arguing that it's "good"?

I live here. Yes it does.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#68

Post by swombat »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #67
swombat wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retard does not have the same "inappropriate" connotations in the UK as in the US (certainly it's nothing like using nigger or fag(got) in conversation as a pejorative). But yes, I do think being mentally handicapped is "bad". Are you arguing that it's "good"?

I live here. Yes it does.

Well, I live here too. Maybe you live in an alternate reality.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think being mentally handicapped is good?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#69

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

swombat wrote: post #68
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live here. Yes it does.

Well, I live here too. Maybe you live in an alternate reality. You didn't answer my question. Do you think being mentally handicapped is good?

It is neither good nor bad. Neutral.

But regardless of your opinion, using it as an insult is uncalled for. Since essentially you're lumping people who already have problems in with whatever it is you're trying to insult.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#70

Post by arrrg »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #54
gertertsgsdfa wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really much of a defence though, is it? British construction workers have decided for themselves which jokes are normal, which are funny, which jokes cross the line. Their tastes are biased in a very sexist way (probably more to do with subjective bias than actual misogyny, but still sexist in content). Think about your list of things to joke about. If you're not a straight, masculine, white, English man t…

They'd probably call you gay even if you weren't, whether or not you actually are is probably not that important to them. You'd also probably get made fun of more for being say Irish or Scottish than for being black. Whether or not it's "okay" it is not something you could reasonably expect to be changed for one person. I would think that really her employer should have managed her expectations better.

Using "gay" as an insult is very problematic and homophobic.

Calling someone who is gay "gay" is generally not a problem. (Depending on context it obviously can be, but that's then more dependent on the context, not the word.)

The implication of calling someone who isn't "gay" is that being gay is somehow bad or something to be offended about. That is as clear a homophobic statement as there can be.

It is homophobic, by the way, even if the intent of the speaker isn't there.

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