Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep • Hacker News Board

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#61

Post by throwit1979 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #41

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

FYI whomever is downvoting this - you can downvote it all you want. It doesn't make it any less true. I'll take the hit on my karma points on the off chance it makes someone think, even for a second, about not perpetrating the selfish act of cruelty that is bringing a child into an impoverished existence.

Heh. Daring to suggest people think before they procreate is certainly one of those things you cannot say.

Ironic on HN, because http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#62

Post by fishtoaster » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #51

ams6110 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about "most" but somewhere between "most" and "no one" there ARE some people who choose to be "on the streets."

Please find one and post about it here. I would love to meet this mythical person and take a video of them rejecting the offer of a place to live.

Some examples: http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/43085729257/the-street-kid...

I'll agree, "most" is probably way off. It is greater than 0, but it could well be a negligible amount.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#63

Post by brown9-2 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

jarjoura wrote: post #32

There is a disparity between rich and poor in this country, sure, but come on. Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. So many of them are young and it used to make me sad but I have just learned to accept it. I always make a point to package up leftovers and hand them out. I'll even reach into my wallet and hand out a few dollars too. If there were more I could do though, I would be more than…

I think this comment seems to assume that "homeless" is the only problem, whereas I think the OP was discussing poverty in general as well.

I don't think anyone can say (with a straight face) that most people who live in poverty have chosen that lifestyle.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#64

Post by VMG » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #23

glesica wrote: post #18

I think that when people say "hard problems" they mean "problems that almost certainly have solutions if you are willing to put in the effort". Poverty on the other hand is a much, much harder problem than that. In fact, no one quite knows how to solve it in a general way (there are things that seem to work in certain contexts but not in others, many special case half-solutions). And on top of that, there probably is…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! No more poverty, except in self-inflicted cases (drug addiction, for example), or things like severe and very expensive illness (which are covered by other means)…

> The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM!

You left out the part where the money comes from. Your idea is fine and dandy, but I doubt you are currently implementing it yourself by spending your own money. The idea depends on everybody being forced to pay.

Distributing money indiscriminately devalues work and effort. I disagree with your premise that people who work for rewards are unmotivated.

Those who think this is a good idea can go ahead and spread their wealth as they see fit, but I do have a problem with forcing others to do the same.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#65

Post by hawkal » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #49

regis wrote: post #44

One thing that I think is missing from these discussions about the homeless in SF is: many of these people do not want to be rent-paying members of society and even if there was housing for them, some might still prefer their current lifestyle. Many people still view that lifestyle choice as unacceptable because it challenges the typical goals of someone working hard for a 'better' life. I don't think the question sh…

I don't think anyone actually PREFERS to be homeless, except for a few exotics. Most of the homeless in America are that way due to either a: unfortunate economic circumstances, or b: mental illness that precludes normal social functioning.

What's really scary is that a can lead to b: http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse/News%20and%20Events%2FNews%2FS...

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#66

Post by jf22 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

troebr wrote: post #53

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I'm French living in Jersey. I have been to San Francisco, even though it's blatant when you walk here, everywhere in the US I have that feeling that the poor are really forgotten. And they live in third-world country conditions. In France, the average rich is not as rich, and it's probably a lot harder to become successful and wealthy than here; but the poor are not left behind as much. It feels more like a society…

"third-world country conditions"

No.

Even a porta potty cleaned infrequently is more sanitary than the conditions in the third world. There won't be a cholera outbreak. Food is available and nobody is going to starve to death.

Heck, a simple clean water fountain in some third world countries can improve the lives of an entire village. Even in the most horrible cities in america there are dozens of sources of free water.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#67

Post by cleis » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #38

hsitz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's this odd commingling of the concepts of socialism and liberalism in the general populace's minds, for some reason. The two could not be more antithetical." The reasons for this are historical. What you call the "socialist" elements result from the idea that part of being truly "free" (i.e, liberty) requires that people be treated equally, thus liberals in this sense have a focus on social justice. (See this…

Indeed - perfectly familiar, have read my share of Tocqueville, Hayek, Hobbes and all the rest, but the fundamental point that divides socialism and liberalism is that of freedom of people, vs. freedom of the people - i.e. individualism vs. socialism. Liberalism has always been about social justice, and the idea that each and every human should be free to run or ruin their own lives (Positive vs. Negative freedom), w…

Couldn't agree more. However I would also add that from a truly liberal perspective the logic behind government intervention is market-driven as opposed to primarily humanitarian. Recognising that markets have failures is a key part of capitalist liberalism, and it is that failure of recognition that makes libertarianism such an unstable and unworkable political philosophy.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#68

Post by mabhatter » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

georgefox wrote: post #26

Welcome to a very individualistic and, by consequence, antisocial society. As an American that's never stepped foot in California, this sounds surprisingly familiar, albeit with the unique addition of free food and free beer at work.

Why do people commute 45+ minutes each way to work... To live in a Suburb where the dont interaxt with any neighbors. a place with no public transport, no major retailers, and no place for "malcontents" to flock within 10 miles that's not private property. Even my small city has no "public space" or public transportation after business hours. We have lots of small parks designed to deter "being homeless" there.

Everything about American Rural and Suburb culture drives out those who Rent, and don't want to own full-size autos with all the "rat-race" keeping up with payments and insurance and taxes... Right up until people retire and realize they can't keep up.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#69

Post by _vn5r » Tue, May 14, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

I was in SF in march, and when I commented about this to someone, he said that a friend of his, who worked in an organization that works on helping the homeless, told him that other states actually give the homeless a one-way ticket to SF so its no longer their problem.

I was shocked with this, asked a couple more people if they had heard about that, and they had.

My conclusion was that maybe everyone (or most people) was expecting someone else, or the government, to help the homeless, and there comes the vicious cycle.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#70

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #64

beat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! No more poverty, except in self-inflicted cases (drug addiction, for example), or things like severe and very expensive illness (which are covered by other means)…

> The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! You left out the part where the money comes from. Your idea is fine and dandy, but I doubt you are currently implementing it yourself by spending your own money. The idea depends on everybody being forced to pay.…

Those same arguments could be made against welfare to an extent. The advantage of this system is that it would be simpler and therefor cheaper to administer and possibly harder to game.