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If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

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Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#61

Post by coopdog »

parennoob wrote: post #16
1337 wrote: post #12

This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: ( http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in.... ) 1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something…

> Americans have no duty to import Haitians to make America a dump like Haiti. Americans who feel sorry for Haitians can send them money. I sincerely fail to understand why some Americans always assume everyone wants to emigrate to the United States. It is a fairly probable assumption, but I often see it being the default one whenever I discuss the topic with some people from the US. Most people from the UK/Australia…

When I imagined open immigration I imagined uneducated refugees from the USA clogging up the Australian and Canadian health and welfare systems. The horror..

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#62

Post by RobertHoudin »

1337 wrote: post #12

This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: ( http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in.... ) 1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something…

"All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something* but the people themselves."

Would you care to elaborate on this? In contrast to other segments of your comment, it appears to be incredibly ignorant and chauvinistic, at least to me.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#63

Post by SPSteinbeck »

The costs of such a project -- downward pressure on working class wages, elevated levels of crime among urban poor, dangerous and degraded public schools, etc. -- are not born by writers at The Atlantic, or economists like Bryan Caplan. They know semi-literate peasants pose no threat to their livelihood and they don't feel any more solidarity with another American than would with urban poor in Bangladesh. That people in positions of influence can believe such things is a damning indictment of the United States.

In historical terms, there is an important distinction between inimicus vs hostis; that is, hostility between individuals within a given political order vs hostility to the political order itself. To someone who views a country as nothing more than a utilitarian vehicle for atomized and rootless individuals to maximize their earning potential, this distinction vanishes and thus someone like Bryan Caplan -- a rootless cosmopolitan in every sense of the word -- can publicly and proudly endorse to the destruction and displacement of a people in their own country.

People like this are not men with legitimate opinions and ambitions -- a man who is a traitor to his own people is by definition an evil man and a criminal. He is categorically animated by malice and he's an unjust hostis (enemy) of his own society.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#64

Post by bane »

I think something that's not discussed as much, but would resonate with the HN audience...with lots of us being full or part-time remote workers, imagine being an American and doing your remote job with the low low cost of living of living in Thailand? Or how about waking up on a beach and eating fresh Oysters in Ecuador? Imagine if the majority of your salary went into the local economy of the Dominican Republic?

Sure lots of Thais, Ecuadorians and Dominicans might move to the U.S. and Western Europe for jobs, but the Americans and Europeans might move to their countries and live like kings, generating tons of local jobs.

Now suppose you did your remote job in the countryside of South Korea (relatively cheap and has its charms), and you decide you need an junior person to help you out with your work? Why not hire an incredibly well educated local, who'd be just as happy to not take a job in a boring chaebol grinder? Now you're generating high-end white collar jobs?

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#65

Post by saffer »

davidw wrote: post #25
lobotryas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?). Even if you find a solution, you will be breed…

> you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Telling those people to stay the hell out isn't exactly winning you any points either. In any event, political article, consider flagging.

Discontented people within your borders are a much bigger problem then discontented people outside your borders though.

Also, as a potential future immigrant (native English speaker, doing a PhD in the US, not very culturally distant from Americans except perhaps for a greater appreciation of Monty Python) I would feel extremely alienated if told I had to pay higher taxes for the rest of my life just because I was born elsewhere. The current immigration system may be frustrating at times, but at least I can hold onto the hope that if I become a citizen here, I will have the same rights as everyone else. (Except running for president, which isn't relevant to my planned career path anyway.)

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#66

Post by sardonicbryan »

danenania wrote: post #50
jonemo wrote: post #38

I've been thinking about the idea of free migration for a while. Not in the context of eliminating poverty, but as the perfect implementation of democracy: Vote with your feet, go to wherever you like it best. If all immigration and emigration restrictions were dropped everywhere, and anyone could freely move from any country to any country, and you were full citizen of whatever country you are living in at any given…

I think that in the long run, true open borders would be a death-knell for the nation-state. The two central purposes for nations, as opposed to local and regional governments, are regulating immigration and responding to (or mounting) military threats. After societies have intermixed to a certain point, you'll see the death of nationalism and sufficient cultural and religious diversity in the electorates of wealthy…

The thing that is really going to collapse our current national system is crypto currency. Once governments can't collect taxes easily, could easily see us going to a Neal Stephenson Diamond Age style post national, lifestyle group based system.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#67

Post by Kudzu_Bob »

snowwrestler wrote: post #58
Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, the ruling elites have ways of keeping out the rabble by means of making city life both costly and difficult.

City life is costly and difficult precisely because so many people freely choose to live there.

This New York Times article discusses not only why it is so hard for poor people to live New York but also why the cost of living for the affluent is lower there than elsewhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/magazine/who-says-new-york...

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#68

Post by lobotryas »

lsc wrote: post #56
lobotryas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?). Even if you find a solution, you will be breed…

>Even if you find a solution, you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Now you are facing a protest and political movement composed of immigrants and their citizen sympathizers who are demanding the ever-popular "justice, equality, etc". For a recent example see the illegal immigrant Debate in the US. Southern illegals are already entering the US (illegally) as if the borders are open, already face…

Jus Soli[1] has its own share of challenges and problems[2][3]. Personally I would prefer the US to abolish or drastically modify the American Jus Soli provision. It has caused too many heart-breaking situations where the illegal immigrant's child is a citizen and has to enter the foster system because his parents get being deported.

Overall only education, integration and the political clout to refuse to sacrifice democratic principles in the face of potential demands from new immigrants is a way that open immigration can work.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_babies

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#69

Post by jonemo »

VLM wrote: post #52
jonemo wrote: post #38

I've been thinking about the idea of free migration for a while. Not in the context of eliminating poverty, but as the perfect implementation of democracy: Vote with your feet, go to wherever you like it best. If all immigration and emigration restrictions were dropped everywhere, and anyone could freely move from any country to any country, and you were full citizen of whatever country you are living in at any given…

The problem with modeling it is likely to be defining all aspects of the problem. The most immediate result of "I can just move" is likely to be some environmental problems. And its not like you'll be able to enforce environmental laws if you can, as you say, just move. "Is there even such a thing as a generally "desirable" citizen" I've done some minimal research and worldwide immigration policies have more or less…

I agree with most of your second paragraph. The baseline requirements for immigration are the same almost everywhere. A side effect of that is that there are people today who practically live without immigration restrictions. If you are born into the right nationality, and have the right combination of wealth and/or education, you can move pretty much anywhere you want. I'm soon going to finish grad school and recently ranked all countries in the world on how much I'd like to live/work there. There wasn't a single one where I'd consider going but couldn't.

Looping back to your first argument on environmental problems: Those people who could do the most severe environmental damage are probably in that group who can move freely already. And my impression is that they are already doing a fair bit of environmental damage. A trivial example would be the people who travel to the Alps every winter to do winter sports while merrily destroying the ecosystem there.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#70

Post by civilian »

rayiner wrote: post #47
tokenadult wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rayiner, aren't you from an immigrant family yourself? It would be really helpful to have your perspective on this issue, so either by an edit of the parent comment here, or by a new reply below, why not follow the model of Paul Graham's essay "How to Disagree" http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html and tell us point-by-point what you think is incorrect about Caplan's policy proposals?

I am from an immigrant family (I am in fact first generation, having moved here from Bangladesh at age 5 with my parents), which shapes my perceptions and makes policy proposals like Caplan's seem naive to me. They seem to me the kinds of ideas that seem attractive to those blessed by good government and a viable culture for so long that you think that human society is naturally that way. My family left Bangladesh to…

All I'm reading here is that we should be able to decline immigrants based on cultural stereotypes.

How is their culture toxic?

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