Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency • Hacker News Board

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#61

Post by amalag » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #43

h2s wrote: post #33

Does anybody else feel that the current proliferation of P2P cryptocurrencies looks symptomatic of a pyramid scheme that has proven its viability (in the form of BTC) and is now being repeated by unscrupulous copycats who smell a quick buck? I'm not calling the concept of BTC-style cryptocurrency a deliberate, malicious pyramid scheme in itself. I think this is an unintended side-effect.

Yes. Well, qualified yes: I don't believe that the new cryptocurrencies are more of a pump-and-dump than Bitcoin is. The pump-and-dump model is intrinsic to why Bitcoin is popular: creating lots of widely distributed coins early, then making them increasingly dear, creates a built-in base of... let me be charitable and call them "cryptocurrency evangelists", who have high incentive to go to their local online waterin…

I like some of the concepts behind this freicon, it disincentives pump and dump and pyramid schemes. I personally will never put money in bit coins because it is like a pyramid scheme. Again what we really need is probably frictionless digital payments, not another currency.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#62

Post by smithzvk » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

n1c wrote: post #29

runn1ng wrote: post #4

Q: What is the Freicoin Foundation? A: The Freicoin Foundation is a non-profit organization, aiming to support sustainability and biodiversity by integrating Freicoin into economical relations. Q: You said that Freicoin is decentralized. But the Foundation makes it centralized! A: You are right. But we have no other solution. Initial coins should be distributed to the society. Q: Why can't you just give these coins t…

My gut tells me that somehow there is room for a "everyone gets N" style ~~ virtual currency ~~. Like you prove your identity and get the same amount that everyone else gets (scrubbed on transfer) because the whole early-adopters-win thing is sucky. But this doesn't look like the answer.

So, like a virtual allowance?

Is the "whole early adopters win" thing only sucky because you are not an early adopter? Note that I'm not an early adopter either, but it seems a bit nonsense.

Also, BTC is still pretty young, you could still be a relatively early adopter. You could spend a few months researching, and a few tens of thousands of USD to purchase a competitive mining rig, and you could still make a fortune, or you could lose it all. It isn't the same "anybody can do it" world that it used to be, but it certainly is still low barrier to entry. Is this really a dislike of systems that reward personal risk taking?

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#63

Post by DennisP » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

wiradikusuma wrote: post #17

Being conditioned like this, wouldn't that deter early adopters? I mean, what would incentivize them?

The incentive is to mine and spend, instead of buy and hold.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#64

Post by jimktrains2 » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

khuey wrote: post #56

jimktrains2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for anything though. If I convince you to get into model trains it's not because it will significantly raise the after-market value of my current (rolling) stock.

Except that model train manufacturers can raise production to maintain a price equilibrium (and have an incentive to do so, namely the profit they make from producing trains). Nobody can manufacture any more bitcoins than the algorithm allows. Now if you convince me to get into collectible model trains, say pre-war Lionel models, the supply of which is fixed, that will raise the after-market value of your pre-war Lio…

So, you're saying all collectible markets are also ponzi schemes?

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#65

Post by DennisP » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:46 PM UTC

Doesn't seem to have a technical paper, or any real details on how it implements its goals. Anyone know if it's out there somewhere?

Edit: I found this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35705

Looks like demurrage is implemented simply by a rule for block validation: transaction outputs have to subtract from inputs based on the age of the coins. Don't know how they calculate age unambiguously.

There seems to be a lot of centralization in this particular implementation...eg., 80% of new coins go to the foundation for the first three years, which says it will distribute based on ideological motivations.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#66

Post by hazov » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

h2s wrote: post #33

Does anybody else feel that the current proliferation of P2P cryptocurrencies looks symptomatic of a pyramid scheme that has proven its viability (in the form of BTC) and is now being repeated by unscrupulous copycats who smell a quick buck? I'm not calling the concept of BTC-style cryptocurrency a deliberate, malicious pyramid scheme in itself. I think this is an unintended side-effect.

I would not call it a ponzi scheme because the idea of cryptocurrency does not entail any return, it is more like a seigniorage.

Some of these cryptocurrencies appeared in 2011, if I'm not wrong, in the middle of the first bitcoin price hike but they proposed different algorithms to generate coins, so I do not know if we can attribute their design to malice.

My main problem with it all is that users from these currencies built an identity around them, which mixes politics, ideology and hoarding of this currencies.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#67

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 3:01 PM UTC

DennisP wrote: post #65

Doesn't seem to have a technical paper, or any real details on how it implements its goals. Anyone know if it's out there somewhere? Edit: I found this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35705 Looks like demurrage is implemented simply by a rule for block validation: transaction outputs have to subtract from inputs based on the age of the coins. Don't know how they calculate age unambiguously. There seems to be…

[deleted]

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#68

Post by aethertap » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 3:24 PM UTC

khuey wrote: post #55

aethertap wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for others, but in my case, if I came to possess some of this currency I would immediately seek a way to convert it into something that would not decay as I kept it. I think that saving money for both unexpected problems and future investments is an important part of social responsibility, and I would not adopt a currency that was deliberately designed to make saving difficult unless it was forced on me…

Yes, the point is to get you to convert the currency into something that doesn't decay. That keeps the money supply flowing and encourages you to invest in productive assets, both of which are good for society. A deflationary currency encourages you to stuff all your coins under your mattress.

How does it improve the situation if I'm just buying something else to stuff under my mattress (e.g. silver)? I guess my issue is that it seems like even with a system like this implemented at a national scale, over the long run you'd end up with people rushing to convert the currency into "real" money, that being whatever commodity people land on as being most easily traded/stored/etc. At that point it seems like the commodity becomes the currency.

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#69

Post by BrokenPipe » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 3:26 PM UTC

khuey wrote: post #56

jimktrains2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for anything though. If I convince you to get into model trains it's not because it will significantly raise the after-market value of my current (rolling) stock.

Except that model train manufacturers can raise production to maintain a price equilibrium (and have an incentive to do so, namely the profit they make from producing trains). Nobody can manufacture any more bitcoins than the algorithm allows. Now if you convince me to get into collectible model trains, say pre-war Lionel models, the supply of which is fixed, that will raise the after-market value of your pre-war Lio…

so you're saying that gold is a ponzi scheme ?

Re: Freicoin - easy-to-use demurrage currency

#70

Post by jstalin » Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 3:40 PM UTC

rrrrtttt wrote: post #47

jstalin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is subjective. Water is very valuable in the desert, but not so valuable in the middle of the Pacific. Diamonds are valuable in downtown Chicago, not so much to someone surviving in a lifeboat. During the hyperinflation of Germany in the 20's, people were trading furs and antiques for food. It's all subjective.

Saying that value is subjective is tautological, it's like saying pretty girls are pretty. What's the base case of the recursion? With stock certificates, you have expectations of future dividends. With stamps, they're nice to look at. What do you have with Bitcoin?

Nice to look at, for some people. Many couldn't care less. Of course, it's subjective. Bitcoins have value for some because those people value bitcoins over other things, like US dollars. It's a subjective value judgment why anyone trades one thing (dollars) for anything else (stamps, bitcoins, diamonds).