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I'm tired

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Re: I'm tired

#61

Post by tiredofcareer »

drakeandrews wrote: post #44
tiredofcareer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking based on experience with what happened to Jesse Noller and the PSF just two weeks ago , you do not want to escalate this to any level where someone might lose a job or be asked to leave the conference. The same people that cannot handle social situations with women without discussing their tits resort to death threats and nonstop harassment when one of "their own" is chastised publicly for such a thing. If I…

Whilst I understand the idea you're trying to get across, we have to make it clear to these people that they're outright not welcome any more. Getting this asshat barred from future GDC's can only be a good thing and perhaps if (and when) people get up in arms over it a la Adria Richards, they need to be warned, or even barred, too. Doing nothing because you fear the verbal reprisals of a group of immature misogynist…

I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm saying don't make this a public spectacle or attempt to get the person fired or banned from GDC. Here's why: In my reading, this person was not confronted about it enough for him to change his behavior. In the author's writing, it was swept under the rug.

Right now resolution of these incidents goes like this:

    Hear ugly -> politely ignore in person -> report to others
So yeah, if you want to be deferential to other people and never get things accomplished by yourself, and passive aggressively "send a message" to the person by getting them banned by GDC, by all means. Just know that nothing will change. The person will resent you for getting him banned from GDC, not for being offended at his ugliness.

This is like calling the police because someone shouted in your face and you can't handle it. The correct answer is handling it yourself. The police don't have time for that shit, and I've seen way too many people think that's what the police are for (even calling 911 because someone was shouting at them, or laid a hand on them -- though the latter gets a little more complicated). Here's how this sort of thing should go:

    Hear ugly -> stop socializing and make offender cry
Seriously, a step by step guide to handling this:

    1. Someone says something ugly.
    2. "Whoa whoa, everybody stop. Shut up a second."
    3. "What did you just say?"
    4. Continue silencing the table.
       Do not let anybody else stop you or get involved.
    5. "That is completely unacceptable."
    6. "You owe your victim an apology."
       Do not stop until you get an honest one.
    7. If the offender whimpers, good. You got through.
    8. If the offender refuses apology, eject the offender.
Think of this as garbage collection. Pause the world, clean up the garbage, resume socializing. It's important that everybody else defers to you and doesn't attempt to interrupt you or stop you. Several people always will to avoid the confrontation happening in front of them. "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way." Neutralize them or you will never be able to get through to the person you need to change. The target of your confrontation will cling to the people around you who are less sure of what you're doing and use it against you. Be resolute. This isn't "alpha male" behavior, this is standing strong and not taking no for an answer.

Seriously, be the change you want to see in our industry. Quit calling the cops to make other people fix your problems. Stop being polite to assholes. Your politeness is what feeds them -- they know you won't confront them.

Re: I'm tired

#62

Post by 18hrs »

famousactress wrote: post #2

I hate that feeling.. the knowledge that engaging in the discussion is going to be exhausting and the chance of making traction is slim, and the feeling that inaction is the only reasonable alternative. Allow me to suggest another alternative to actual discussion in situations like this: Tell the person to fuck off. I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting…

I agree about the need to clearly register disagreement, but I'd opt for slightly less shock... I'd say, calmly and sternly "that is entirely inappropriate." I'd then call on others in the group to register their disagreement.

Re: I'm tired

#63

Post by lucian303 »

Great, but if ending sexism is your cause, this is not the proper forum. This has nothing to do with tech other than the circumstances surrounding the occasion. It happens in all fields and it happens with compensation. Yeah, it sucks, but get over your feelings if you really want to do something about it and speak up the next time.

Won't change anything, but at least we won't be subjected to this shit.

Re: I'm tired

#64

Post by [deleted] »

tjbiddle wrote: post #10

Why is this even a topic anymore? I don't understand how this can even enter into someone's mind as an acceptable remark to make. This is the 21st century - if you don't treat women with respect and as equals then please, don't show your face in public anymore until you learn normal human etiquette.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired

#65

Post by banachtarski »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #9
banachtarski wrote: post #6

Can we tell the GDC committee? There were witnesses, and getting him expelled from future GDC events seems like an appropriate reaction.

Speaking based on experience with what happened to Jesse Noller and the PSF just two weeks ago , you do not want to escalate this to any level where someone might lose a job or be asked to leave the conference. The same people that cannot handle social situations with women without discussing their tits resort to death threats and nonstop harassment when one of "their own" is chastised publicly for such a thing. If I…

The notice to the individual need not be overtly public-facing. It could just be a dialog between the conference committee (who should care about the quality of its attendees) and the person in question. I personally would also prefer less public vitriol everywhere.

Re: I'm tired

#66

Post by danielweber »

tptacek wrote: post #47

Where are these people working, that saying something like "award winning tits" wouldn't be a firing offense?

Maybe a self-employed shop?

This isn't necessarily "firing offense." It is "fireable offense" and if you aren't sweating through your talk with HR you are messed up.

And if your company doesn't have an HR department: congratulations, now they need one.

Re: I'm tired

#67

Post by banachtarski »

jason_slack wrote: post #8
banachtarski wrote: post #6

Can we tell the GDC committee? There were witnesses, and getting him expelled from future GDC events seems like an appropriate reaction.

I was just thinking that may be a great course of action. Probably make him think twice to take away something he values. See you thought better than I did. I decided to insult him first, think logical second :-)

Your reaction is understandable honestly (although perhaps not correct in the sense of what should be socially acceptable).

If somebody said that next to me in person, I'd probably punch them and apologize afterwards hehe.

Re: I'm tired

#68

Post by milfot »

jedwhite wrote: post #15

The cached version is a little hard on the eyes so here is text: Last night was the end of an amazing GDC trip. A handful of remaining friends and I made a journey out to JapanTown and we had an amazing meal. It was a great way to end the trip. One of my friends, and a fellow game developer, was there for dinner. Her trip to GDC was planned last-minute, thanks to someone obtaining her a (very expensive!) all-access p…

Wow! That is so fucked up.

(the situation, not the reaction.. I would have asked him to leave (and have in similar situations), though I realise not everyone is as comfortable as with confrontation as I ;)

I would encourage people to name names in these situations. Group humiliation is a very good catalyst for change, if it comes to that.

Re: I'm tired

#69

Post by danielweber »

tankbot wrote: post #13
banachtarski wrote: post #6

Can we tell the GDC committee? There were witnesses, and getting him expelled from future GDC events seems like an appropriate reaction.

Reactionary and probably won't help. Involving some sort of arbitrary authority only serves to dilute the cause and adds external interests to influence an outcome. It also means this type of behavior will continue when the 'sexism police' aren't looking. I think social pressure is what needs to make this stop. We need to be mindful of what's not ok and have the courage to say something. That means that the authority…

Getting him kicked out is social pressure.

Re: I'm tired

#70

Post by 205guy »

norswap wrote: post #36

Not this again. The kind of people who make this kind of comment don't give a shit about this kind of blogpost.

I don't know, he or others could volunteer the name of the offender, who may want to make amends for the sake of his professional reputation.

On the other hand, I was kinda waiting for the twitpic to go with the story.

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