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Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

wired.com

61–70 of 107 posts

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#61
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn on the issue of buying locked vs unlocked. I have a family to support, so I don't have $500 or more to spend on an unlocked iPhone. Even if I had the money, I live in the US, and I haven't traveled outside of the country in over 10 years. Finally, there is no monthly discount on service if you bring an unlocked phone to a carrier, so that's the third strike. I'll continue to buy a new locked device every cou…

My family recently purchased three Nexus 4 phones straight from Google ($300 each), and picked up a T-Mobile Family Value plan (which means you don't get a phone subsidy, but it is a cheaper) with 1000 minutes, unlimited sms, and unlimited HSPA+ data. $120 / month for 3 lines.

Yep. I know that Nexus devices are cheaper than iPhones when you compare unlocked. But I prefer the iPhone. I also prefer AT&T service. Point is, the unlocked cell phone discussion is a different animal in the US where it doesn't seem to have as many benefits as it would abroad.

Thus, I'll keep using iPhones and my AT&T service and I'll take the subsidy for a new iPhone every few years.

My in-laws only got iPhones because they could get one for free. In their case, spending $0 for 4 older, on-contract, locked iPhones is preferable to spending $800 for 4 new, on-contract, locked iPhones. I would have been laughed at for suggesting $1800 to get 4 iPhone 4's unlocked.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#62
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fallacy. Carriers are oligopoly with high cost of entrance. So if all carriers provide only locked phones there may not be enough devices on the market. There should be laws preventing forced vertical integration. If you sell hardware you cannot restrict the os(you are free to provide os, but locking of the bootloader should be left to the user). If you sell OS you cannot limit what applications the user can…

> So if all carriers provide only locked phones there may not be enough devices on the market. Except you can buy directly from the phone manufacturer: https://play.google.com/store/devices/details/Nexus_4_8GB?id... , http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_iphone Your argument basically amounts to: "if the carriers did have a monopoly on phones, then there would be a problem."

yet, ATT & Verizon will not charge less. wait, they will force you to buy a data plan too if you use your unlocked smartphone. Imagine a real state market - take mortgage or pay double for the house if you pay cash.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look, just because it's in your pocket and you get to use it as soon as you leave the store does not mean you own it." So who owns it? When last I checked, there was no line of credit, I am allowed to sell the phone to someone else without informing the carrier, and I am responsible for repairing any damage or replacing the phone if it is rendered non-functional. It sounds like I paid the carrier's price, signed a c…

Why don't you read your contract and pay particular attention to the bit where it talks about transfer of title? As someone who doesn't sign these kinds of contracts and hasn't for years, I'm not sure what the exact position of the carrier is without downloading and analyzing a phone contract, which I don't feel like doing right now. The differences from leasing a car are for obvious reasons. If you don't make the pa…

"the players within the phone industry have similar privileges"

I suppose that would be true if we exclude all the electronics shops that could make a business charging a small fee to unlock phones.

"I could point out that they also bear the burden of paying billions up front for lease of spectrum"

Which actually helps the cell companies more than it hurts them, since it basically rules out a large number of potential competitors. A coffee shop can run a wifi network, but that gets extremely limited bandwidth and extremely limited power. Amateur radio operators have fewer restrictions on power, but are completely tied up in other regulations.

Large areas of the United States are served by only a handful of cell carriers, whose service is overpriced and mediocre at best. There are two possible solutions to that situation: abandon market-based solutions and create a monopoly that is heavily regulated to protect consumers from abusive practices, or embrace market-based solutions and reduce the barriers to competition (say, opening cell phone bands to unlicensed secondary users with established rules for settling interference disputes). Right now, we are not really pursuing either strategy, and in the mean time we are falling behind other countries in terms of wireless deployment.

"You want to unlock the phone overseas, then do it overseas where you won't be subject to US law"

OK, sure, but that just means that American businesses that might unlock phones (say, businesses at international airports) cannot exist. It still helps the cell carriers' business model, just not as much as it might have (it reduces the convenience and introduces potential language barriers).

"You want to have two contracts on the same phone, the second one is going to be month-to-month by definition because the second carrier has no property interest in the phone"

Neither carrier has a property interest in the phone. Nobody is charged a fee for breaking their phone while under contract; they are expected to just buy another phone.

"you can easily get out of your contract by paying the ETF."

So what? That is not the issue. Nobody is suggesting that people should be able to terminate their contracts without paying a fee. The issue is whether or not people will be able to unlock their phones, which is completely orthogonal to the issue of contracts.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#65
post #30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that "falsehood" doesn't conform to your beliefs about what sort of unlocking should be allowed, I think their definition disagrees with most peoples' definitions, including the one in the petition itself: "As of January 26, consumers will no longer be able unlock their phones for use on a different network without carrier permission, even after their contract has expired. " Unlocking phones under contract is i…

> Unlocking phones under contract is implicitly their core complaint. Perhaps, but unlocking off contract is explicitly their complaint.

Unlocking phones is explicitly their complaint. They didn't divide the issue into contract and non-contract phones: the White House lawyers created that separation.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you read your contract and pay particular attention to the bit where it talks about transfer of title? As someone who doesn't sign these kinds of contracts and hasn't for years, I'm not sure what the exact position of the carrier is without downloading and analyzing a phone contract, which I don't feel like doing right now. The differences from leasing a car are for obvious reasons. If you don't make the pa…

"the players within the phone industry have similar privileges" I suppose that would be true if we exclude all the electronics shops that could make a business charging a small fee to unlock phones. "I could point out that they also bear the burden of paying billions up front for lease of spectrum" Which actually helps the cell companies more than it hurts them, since it basically rules out a large number of potentia…

Neither carrier has a property interest in the phone. Nobody is charged a fee for breaking their phone while under contract; they are expected to just buy another phone.

You know perfectly well that you retain liability for the ETF, which is a proxy for the phone, and reflective of the impracticality of repossessing it.

And the administration supports the right to unlock your phone out of contract. While it's in contract, and non-unlocking is a contractual provision, that's between you and your carrier. If you find the non-unlocking provision of the contract offensive, as I do, then don't enter into such a contract.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#67
post #59
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm allowed to take a hammer and smash the phone while it's "bound by a service agreement" I should also be allowed to fiddle with the electronics. The reason it is not illegal to smash the phone is because it is your phone. The service agreement is a contract that you entered saying you will pay a monthly fee for two years independently of what happens to the phone. The phone is used by the phone company as an in…

"The reason it is not illegal to smash the phone is because it is your phone." And because you have to either continue paying for service or pay a termination fee. In either case the provider is recouping the cost.

> And because you have to either continue paying for service or pay a termination fee.

Isn't that still the case if I switch carriers?

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#68
post #2

Meanwhile, progress is being made to legalize cellphone unlocking. With grassroots groups leading the charge, the Obama administration announced its support for overturning the ban last week. I'm astonished that people overwhelmingly believe this falsehood. The White House response opposes legalized phone unlocking, except to phones already out of contract. When they say they "support unlocking", they have a differen…

> I'm astonished that people overwhelmingly believe this falsehood. Maybe that "falsehood" doesn't conform to your beliefs about what sort of unlocking should be allowed, but I think the quote you highlighted is a reasonable one. There are legitimate reasons to allow restrictions on what can be done with subsidized devices which are still bound by a service agreement. Your comment suggests that you're astonished that…

>There are legitimate reasons to allow restrictions on what can be done with subsidized devices which are still bound by a service agreement.

Like what? As long as the customer is paying the service fee as they agreed to, the carrier shouldn't care if someone wants to use their device on another network. That means less network congestion and less necessary infrastructure, with the possible downside of fewer overage fees going to the carrier.

It's not like people would be able to buy a subsidized phone, unlock it and break their contract to go with another carrier, and pocket the subsidy. The early termination fee covers that. The carriers even say so: when Verizon increased their ETF from $175 to $350 for smartphones, they cited smartphone subsidies as their reason.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the players within the phone industry have similar privileges" I suppose that would be true if we exclude all the electronics shops that could make a business charging a small fee to unlock phones. "I could point out that they also bear the burden of paying billions up front for lease of spectrum" Which actually helps the cell companies more than it hurts them, since it basically rules out a large number of potentia…

Neither carrier has a property interest in the phone. Nobody is charged a fee for breaking their phone while under contract; they are expected to just buy another phone. You know perfectly well that you retain liability for the ETF, which is a proxy for the phone, and reflective of the impracticality of repossessing it. And the administration supports the right to unlock your phone out of contract. While it's in cont…

"You know perfectly well that you retain liability for the ETF, which is a proxy for the phone, and reflective of the impracticality of repossessing it."

No, I know no such thing; all I see is a cell phone company using a loss leader strategy, and the US government affording them special protections for that strategy. On paper and elsewhere, you own your phone -- end of story. There is no issue of repossession because there is no line of credit involved. Furthermore, even if there were a line of credit here, credit card companies are able to go after delinquent accounts even in cases where repossession is infeasible, and often with amounts of money that are much larger than the price of a typical phone.

It is not as though the contract is for free service plus payment for the phone in installments. The service is still at a massive premium even with the contract, and the early termination fee is only tangentially related to the price of the phone. The sole purpose of selling the phones at a discount is to entice consumers into paying for contracts; it is a classic loss leader strategy.

"While it's in contract, and non-unlocking is a contractual provision"

Contract law is a separate issue from the DMCA. The problem here is not the enforcement of a contract, it is the fact that even without a contractual prohibition on unlocking the phone you would still be forbidden from doing so.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#70
post #9

"...once we buy an object — any object — we should own it." Sure, but a purchase often comes with restrictions that you agree to before deciding on the purchase. If you don't agree to the restrictions you can avoid the purchase altogether. I can buy a six hundred thousand dollar house and still not have the right to put a garden gnome on my lawn if I bought in a community with by-laws that prohibit that. "Because man…

Yeah, the article was over-simplifying a bit. I doubt that Wired thinks I can buy a copy of their (print) magazine and then, since I own it , I can do whatever I want with it (like scanning it and putting it online).

That is different though. Buying a phone doesn't allow you to make an exact copy and then sell it, but buying a copy of wired does allow you to use it to prop up your monitor, use it as insulation for your house, or anything else you decide to do with the paper.
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