Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#61

Post by MicahWedemeyer » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 4:44 PM UTC

jones1618 wrote: post #56

aetherson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Adderall analogy is terribly suspect, though. Why should I believe it's a useful analogy? Are we suggesting that ANY kind of non-productive-but-fun behavior should be permitted, and that trying to say, "No, you can't do that because it's not productive" is like forcing someone to take drugs? What if it's the reverse? Say I'd like to drink, or do heroin, in the office. Yes, sure, I'll be less productive, but I'll…

The Adderall analogy is just a device to underscore his point that judging anything by a single metric (i.e. "productivity") can lead to equally absurd and inhumane work policies. Also, productivity is nearly impossible to measure yet I'd argue that some of the "feel-good" benefits of work-at-home actually do result in higher productivity. Let's take a few: 1) Commute time: 2 hours that I can be more productive and/o…

I wish I could upvote you more. You're exactly right in that I'm trying to make a "reductio ad absurdum" argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

I really don't expect companies to start forcing Adderall on people, but if productivity is all that matters then it's a viable strategy. Therefore, if you agree that giving Adderall to your employees is absurd, then you're forced to agree that productivity is not all that matters. (Or at least, that's the hope.)

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#62

Post by fabricode » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 4:47 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #60

> "I’ve finally nailed down what it is: it treats productivity as if it’s the only thing that matters. Frankly, I don’t really care if I am less productive working from home than in the office." You may profess to not care, but your employer certainly cares how productive you are. That's why they're paying to employ you, after all. And, in the long run, people's salaries depend on their productivity. If working from…

Then what about the author's other points where you can increase your productivity if you avoid all alcohol and get good rest. If productivity is what is most important, then maybe your employer should be allowed to limit your alcohol consumption during your off-hours.

If you're employing someone putting together sprockets on an assembly line, then yes, productivity may be the most important thing to you. If you are employing managers, designers, programmers, advertising folks... then maybe productivity is not your primary goal. Maybe getting the smartest work from them is more important than getting the greatest amount of output.

Personally, I'd rather have one brilliant, game-changing program/algorithm/policy/advertisement than one hundred mediocre pieces of output.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#63

Post by aetherson » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:04 PM UTC

jones1618 wrote: post #56

aetherson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Adderall analogy is terribly suspect, though. Why should I believe it's a useful analogy? Are we suggesting that ANY kind of non-productive-but-fun behavior should be permitted, and that trying to say, "No, you can't do that because it's not productive" is like forcing someone to take drugs? What if it's the reverse? Say I'd like to drink, or do heroin, in the office. Yes, sure, I'll be less productive, but I'll…

The Adderall analogy is just a device to underscore his point that judging anything by a single metric (i.e. "productivity") can lead to equally absurd and inhumane work policies. Also, productivity is nearly impossible to measure yet I'd argue that some of the "feel-good" benefits of work-at-home actually do result in higher productivity. Let's take a few: 1) Commute time: 2 hours that I can be more productive and/o…

But that's not the author's point. He says that even if we stipulate that working at home is not productive, he should get to work at home, and indeed that making him work in the office is like demanding that he take Adderall!

Pivoting from there to, "But actually maybe he is more productive at home" isn't defending his point.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#64

Post by Nursie » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:07 PM UTC

"Am I more productive?, look at the other side and ask, Am I happier? If the answer is no, then working from home probably isn’t for you. If the answer is yes, then think hard about how valuable productivity is versus your own happiness."

This is great advice if you're self employed or can pick and choose employers.

The other point of the article, that forcing people to come to the office is somehow morally wrong, is nonsense.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#65

Post by MicahWedemeyer » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

3minus1 wrote: post #58

philwelch wrote: post #16

This article is garbage. It can be boiled down to one sentence: "if working from home makes me happy at the cost of productivity, forcing me to come into the office just because it's more productive is the moral equivalent of requiring me to take Adderall." To which the appropriate response is: "bullshit". Requiring someone to take physically harmful and addictive drugs is not even remotely in the same galaxy as requ…

He's using a reductio ad absurdem arguement. He takes the principle of "a company valuing productivity over happiness" and extends it to an absurd degree to argue that company's shouldn't prohibit telecommuting in order to increase productivity. It's a pretty stupid argument that is equivalent to saying companies shouldn't do things that are in their own self-interest.

You're right that I'm using reductio ad absurdum, but my goal is to call into question the idea that productivity is all that matters. If we're going to argue things based solely on productivity, then all sorts of absurd policies become viable (Adderall, not hiring pregnant women, not hiring people with disabilities)

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#66

Post by coldtea » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:51 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #54

coldtea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, working in an office is practically the equivalent of coal mining. Yes, because coal mining is the absolute criterion of unhealthiness in the workplace. And given that people do coal mining, "working 10+ hours, 5 days a week in an office" can never be viewed as bad, right?

Who said anything about working 10+ hours?

Tons of employers.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#67

Post by 3minus1 » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:52 PM UTC

MicahWedemeyer wrote: post #65

3minus1 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's using a reductio ad absurdem arguement. He takes the principle of "a company valuing productivity over happiness" and extends it to an absurd degree to argue that company's shouldn't prohibit telecommuting in order to increase productivity. It's a pretty stupid argument that is equivalent to saying companies shouldn't do things that are in their own self-interest.

You're right that I'm using reductio ad absurdum, but my goal is to call into question the idea that productivity is all that matters. If we're going to argue things based solely on productivity, then all sorts of absurd policies become viable (Adderall, not hiring pregnant women, not hiring people with disabilities)

You're wrong. Policies like you listed are not viable because of either government regulation or the mere fact that a company will not be able to hire and retain good people if it treats them like shit. You offer an absurd and totally unrealistic situation.

It's also naive to expect companies to be concerned with anything other that making a profit. At any moment, another company can come in and implement changes that the first company was unwilling to make and undercut it's business.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#68

Post by coldtea » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:53 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #53

coldtea wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To which the appropriate response is: "bullshit". Requiring someone to take physically harmful and addictive drugs is not even remotely in the same galaxy as requiring them to come into the office. Not sure. The things some companies demand of their employees do have a health toll, and it's higher than Adderall. Working 14+ hours for days (EA style) is not better than taking Adderall. And a "death march" type of pr…

Not working from home isn't even the equivalent of working 14+ hour days.

OK, let's see it this way:

Even for a 8-hour, 5 days/week job, the daily commute + wasted office time + coworker disruptions add up to 3-4 hours per day for most.

Thats years off of your life.

Adderal might be better after all.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#69

Post by Nursie » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 5:57 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #68

philwelch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not working from home isn't even the equivalent of working 14+ hour days.

OK, let's see it this way: Even for a 8-hour, 5 days/week job, the daily commute + wasted office time + coworker disruptions add up to 3-4 hours per day for most. Thats years off of your life. Adderal might be better after all.

"wasted office time + coworker disruptions"

These are part of the 8 hours of work and many might argue that interaction with coworkers is both healthy for the individual and a useful, productive part of your job.

Re: Working From Home is Like Saying No to Drugs

#70

Post by aetherson » Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

MicahWedemeyer wrote: post #39

aetherson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the stipulated scenario is not about highly productive employees. The author is saying that even if he's less productive, he thinks that he should be allowed to work at home. Obviously, "less productive" is an implicit comparison with some base level of productivity, and we don't know what that level of productivity is. I think that the author implies that he thinks his base level of productivity is "high enough.…

I guess I've been doing it so long that I don't really think of it as allowed anymore. It's just something that I feel is my choice. I've gone so far as to co-found my own consulting company so that no one will get to make that decision for me in the future. I will make my own decisions about how and where I should work.

Well, if you own your own company, I'm not sure who you're justifying yourself to.

If, however, you are in a situation where you have an employer, I'm sorry; you're just wrong. Working from home is not a fundamental human right. You are, or are not, allowed to.