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A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

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Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#61

Post by daeken »

some1else wrote: post #59
colanderman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIDI is an 8-bit protocol, operating at 31.25kbaud. False. That is but one transport option for MIDI data. USB-MIDI is another, much higher bit-rate protocol. The standard doesn't include any means of transmitting expression data other than velocity on a per-note basis. False. MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type. If you try and send too much controller information o…

Many OSC based applications for the monome[1] were ported to work with the copy-paste-avalanche of grid controllers (Launchpad, APC). The USB-MIDI data rate limitations are clearly visible when trying to change the state of 64 keypads at once. 64 individual signals with 8ms latency completely break the flow[2], compared to a single optimized OSC message. Your counterpoints are correct, but MIDI is a better choice ove…

> The USB-MIDI data rate limitations are clearly visible when trying to change the state of 64 keypads at once. 64 individual signals with 8ms latency completely break the flow[2], compared to a single optimized OSC message.

Can't agree enough. I picked up a Launchpad since it was cheap and looked fun to hack on. I wrote a Python module to talk to it and then watched it chugging along while writing a sequencer on it; the bandwidth just isn't there to do intelligent updating of the pads. It is a fun little device, though, and I can't wait to get my Push to continue the work (the protocol seems to be more sane, given what Ableton is doing with it)

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#62

Post by michaelfeathers »

mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

I think the truth is weirder.

There's actually a recurring pattern for anyone who cares to notice. Most new instruments are developed to emulate something else and they do it badly. Pipe organs were developed to emulate choirs. Now we love pipe organs precisely because of their limitations. They have a "distinctive sound."

The same thing happened with the Fender Rhodes piano, the Mellotron, the Moog, the Fairlight Synthesizer, and (believe it or not) MIDI. They started as cheap substitutes (masked by a "wow" factor), then people bemoaned their limitations relative to what they emulated and ditched them, then they were resurrected for the uniqueness of their sound.

Instruments are defined by their limitations. No matter how much we claim to hate those limitations, we end up loving them for them.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#63

Post by cma »

jdietrich wrote: post #46
mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

Your argument doesn't hold water. The classical pipe organ, often referred to as "the king of instruments", is a synthesiser. The organ console is an electrical or pneumatic controller, with no direct connection to the pipes. Most large organs have considerable "latency", due to the distance from the console to the pipe room. Some pipes may be as much as a hundred feet away from the player, so the sound will take ove…

The Telharmonium was in 1906, more than a hundred years ago

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#64

Post by baddox »

TylerE wrote: post #52
baddox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be noted that computer synthesis (procedural or sampled) of keyboard-based is very convincing. They same cannot be said for any other instrument. I agree that keyboard instruments are the most convincing, and certainly the easiest virtual instruments to play (since playing a digital piano is the same as playing an acoustic piano), but there are some pretty expressive and convincing virtual instruments out…

Those are samplers, not synthesizers. (Yes, technically they are synths, but not what's usually meant by the term.) They're just many many GB of samples of real musicians playing real instruments.

The comment I replied to (and quoted) is referring to both synthesizers and samplers.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#65

Post by cma »

smosher wrote: post #51
shardling wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A guitar or piano isn't MIDI compatible, and that hardly matters. If the instrument could really stand on its own, then compatibility isn't a problem.

Sure, but when you depend on synthesis compatibility is a big deal. History seems to support that, with respect to other novel electronic instruments. I was just now responding to a claim that this will work with existing synthesizers. While I would like to have this kind of control, I would much rather have the flexibility that a standard MIDI keyboard with aftertouch affords with respect to synthesis.

It is midi compatible, it just uses 10 separate channels.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#66

Post by danpalmer »

I'm not musical – I can't play an instrument and I don't analyse the music I listen to. But I like listening to music, and to me, this sounds worse than a normal keyboard/piano. It looks (and sounds) really difficult to produce a precise note with, so I wonder if it will take off at all.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#67

Post by smosher »

cma wrote: post #65
smosher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but when you depend on synthesis compatibility is a big deal. History seems to support that, with respect to other novel electronic instruments. I was just now responding to a claim that this will work with existing synthesizers. While I would like to have this kind of control, I would much rather have the flexibility that a standard MIDI keyboard with aftertouch affords with respect to synthesis.

It is midi compatible, it just uses 10 separate channels.

Which is utterly useless in a 1:1 channel:instrument configuration. Most of my MIDI hardware expects to listen on a single channel, as does most I've come across.

My plugin/VST host doesn't know about this either, so I would need to assign 10 different MIDI channels and all 10 CCs every time I want to change instruments. And for those instruments without a per-note bend, I would need to create 10 instances as well.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#68

Post by smosher »

colanderman wrote: post #48
jdietrich wrote: post #30

They've got excellent PR, but they're not doing anything particularly novel. They're advertising a solution to a long-solved part of the puzzle, but saying nothing about the really difficult bit of electronic music control - interoperability. A quick bit of synthesiser history: Traditional electronic keyboards sense how hard you hit the key with two switches, set a distance apart vertically. Measure the time between…

MIDI is an 8-bit protocol, operating at 31.25kbaud. False. That is but one transport option for MIDI data. USB-MIDI is another, much higher bit-rate protocol. The standard doesn't include any means of transmitting expression data other than velocity on a per-note basis. False. MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type. If you try and send too much controller information o…

MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type.

I've read the standard and this sounds very wrong to me. If it is in the spec then I know a few synths that are broken.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#69

Post by tripzilch »

michaelfeathers wrote: post #62
mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

I think the truth is weirder. There's actually a recurring pattern for anyone who cares to notice. Most new instruments are developed to emulate something else and they do it badly. Pipe organs were developed to emulate choirs. Now we love pipe organs precisely because of their limitations. They have a "distinctive sound." The same thing happened with the Fender Rhodes piano, the Mellotron, the Moog, the Fairlight Sy…

So true, another example is the TB-303.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#70

Post by triplesec »

jdietrich wrote: post #46
mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

Your argument doesn't hold water. The classical pipe organ, often referred to as "the king of instruments", is a synthesiser. The organ console is an electrical or pneumatic controller, with no direct connection to the pipes. Most large organs have considerable "latency", due to the distance from the console to the pipe room. Some pipes may be as much as a hundred feet away from the player, so the sound will take ove…

I don't think your argument is inconsistent with the argument you're countering. There is room for both emulation-enhancement of analogue instruments - a very useful function and one which the makers of this seaboard seem to be leaning towards - and the creation of brand new instruments through synth (and new interfac) technology. Indeed these two functions come closer together as we create new interface-noise style hybrids.

Additional points of interest which do not affect your actual argument, but which are good for clarification: the most responsive pipe organs use tracker action, which being mechanical allows much more control than the more "modern" but less responsive electropneumatic actions necessary for the very largest instruments. IT makes the action from pressing key to opening the pipe faster - much of the latency in the organ is often in the pneumatics - but of course cannot change the distance issues.

also Attack makes a huge difference to the sound on a well-voiced instrument, and this makes a huge difference. Subtleties in duration are of course also as vast on the Organ as they are with the piano and other instruments.

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