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Learning how to attract women to web development

devbootcamp.com

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Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#61

Post by unreal37 »

nollidge wrote: post #49
cle wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's a problem. But I'm not convinced that merely attracting more women to web development is the solution. As you said, the problem is that women are discriminated against in the industry. I don't think attracting more women will necessarily solve that problem. The problem is with the attitude of many of the men. Attracting more women might even make it worse . Men might start resenting them. Fixing the…

> I think this is unjust and can often make problems worse, not better. The status quo is what's unjust. Do you agree? If so, how can correcting for that be unjust?

Having a discriminatory policy is unjust. So changing who you discriminate against is not less unjust.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#62

Post by mnicole »

gyardley wrote: post #45
mnicole wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to be the jerk that says using yoga and pedicures as a means to bring women in might actually be more alienating than welcoming to many of us. I have no interest in any of those activities intermingling, and I think it sends a message that we need to "genderize" things to make them relevant or appealing. Now, even though I'm theoretically being targeted, I feel even more like the odd [wo]man out. Sell me on…

Not being a jerk at all. If it's alienating, it's alienating. Although it's interesting, because I like being targeted. If someone organized a nearby tech event that was accompanied by a big rack of ribs and an evening of firing off guns into the desert, I'd sign up for that sucker in a heartbeat. Perhaps that's because I would never think 'oh, the organizers of this event are just putting these activities together t…

Totally with you on that last point. I think what set off my alarm with yoga in particular is that while it is a fantastic meditative and healthy activity, it's often very sexualized.

In reading more about it on their site and an AMA someone did about their experience five months ago, it's a mandatory morning activity they've been doing for awhile now and there don't seem to be any complaints (though a blog, http://newbietoruby.wordpress.com/, says that while he enjoys it, it took two hours out of his day and sometimes stressed him out).

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#63

Post by mnicole »

cle wrote: post #25
amputect wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the OP, nor a woman, but I'll take a shot at this one since it's a fair question respectfully posed. I think that one aspect of this problem is that, due to a combination of cultural factors, women do not feel welcome at industry events, and do not feel like their input is valued, and that's absolutely something that should be addressed.

I agree that it's a problem. But I'm not convinced that merely attracting more women to web development is the solution. As you said, the problem is that women are discriminated against in the industry. I don't think attracting more women will necessarily solve that problem. The problem is with the attitude of many of the men. Attracting more women might even make it worse . Men might start resenting them. Fixing the…

Outside of the fact that there have been studies that show having more women on a team increases productivity and communication, I don't think just knowing a change needs to happen is enough for a lot of people. A few men I've worked with have been completely oblivious to women's issues and wouldn't otherwise make an effort to do anything about that. Just having a woman on the team can adjust perceptions about capability as well as make some of the issues we deal with more "real".

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#64

Post by redsquirrel »

tjic wrote: post #9

> One of our goals at Dev Bootcamp Chicago is to change the ratio of women in software development: we want a 1:1 ratio in our cohorts. Why? That's a serious question. My hobbies include writing, blacksmithing, cooking, and ceramics. In writing, around half the people are women. In blacksmithing perhaps 3% are women. In cooking probably 90% of the blogs I read and people who take classes are women. In ceramics it's a…

I want to change the ratio in web development because my goal in life is to unleash latent human potential. It pisses me off when people don't, or can't, live up to their potential. I believe that the gross underrepresentation of women in software represents a ton of latent human potential, because I also believe that women a) are capable of creating great software, and b) want to.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#65

Post by redsquirrel »

Jemaclus wrote: post #16

I'm not sure this has anything to do with attracting women to web development. These women were already attracted to web development -- or they wouldn't be in Girl Develop It or any of those other groups, right? This is about DevBootCamp patting themselves on the back for meeting their quota. And regardless, this whole "invite women first" thing doesn't really address the basic gender imbalance problems in the indust…

There's definitely some "patting ourselves of our backs" going on here. I was surprised and proud that we surpassed the ratio that we set for ourselves. I figured I'd share what worked for us.

Getting more women to show up may be the easiest part of "changing the ratio". We have lots of other work to do in order to make this stick, which includes working with employers to ensure our students, regardless of gender, are successful after they're hired.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#66

Post by redsquirrel »

shanelja wrote: post #2

I thought the title was 'Learning how to attract women with web development', so the article wasn't exactly what I was expecting, but still a great (if short) read. Could you elaborate further on what you did exactly to get the male attendants percentage to decrease and the effect you think it had? I'm assuming that you expected the female name to draw attention to the fact that a woman was in charge, or something si…

The only way we kept the initial male attendance down was to delay promoting the event through men.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#67

Post by B-Con »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #54
B-Con wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, more degree earners are women now than men, Not in STEM, which constitutes the vast majority of the degrees relevant to Tech/IT.

Probably another symptom of the same problem, and all the more reason to fix it. We not only want more women in web development, but all of STEM in general. There's no biological reason why there shouldn't be a roughly equal proportion of women in STEM, just social anachronisms.

> There's no biological reason why there shouldn't be a roughly equal proportion of women in STEM, just social anachronisms.

That's an assumption. We don't know. :-)

I don't know that future neuroscience is going agree with that statement. The male and female brain do differ on average, and it would seem that these differences may be related to the types of thinking that STEM encourages. Math maybe not so much, but engineering? Maybe. We don't know for sure yet. A lot of people love to think that there's no difference between men an women, but science chips away at that idealism every decade.

But there's no reason to treat men or women any differently with regards to STEM, true. We just have to remember that there may be some base-level biological self-filtering that happens. And if it does, that's OK.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#68

Post by SkyMarshal »

cousin_it wrote: post #59
WalterSear wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't creepy. This particular issue is reverse sexism. But heaven forbid it should ever be seriously discussed while there are all those 'neckbeards' out there to point fingers at.

Hmm, it doesn't seem to be prejudice against all men, but negative stereotyping of male nerds in particular. Many men are guilty of it too, unfortunately. Even many of those who try to get more women into CS.

I think you guys are missing the point. She's just a high school girl talking about 'boys' the way high school girls do.

What I'd hope people key in on is that computer science is a medium of expression, creation, and creativity. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that, but it's apparently not so obvious to everyone, and worth driving that point home when selling the field, particularly to women who may value that aspect of a career as much or more than men.

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#69

Post by cousin_it »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #68
cousin_it wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, it doesn't seem to be prejudice against all men, but negative stereotyping of male nerds in particular. Many men are guilty of it too, unfortunately. Even many of those who try to get more women into CS.

I think you guys are missing the point. She's just a high school girl talking about 'boys' the way high school girls do. What I'd hope people key in on is that computer science is a medium of expression, creation, and creativity. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that, but it's apparently not so obvious to everyone, and worth driving that point home when selling the field, particularly to women who may va…

> I don't think anyone here would disagree with that

Why, I disagree. In the majority of programming jobs that exist in the world, any attempt at creative expression will be shot down.

In fact, if the feel-good stories are true and women are indeed better than men at communication and creativity, that might be already sufficient to explain why there are so few of them in programming jobs, writing Java beans to automate payrolls and such. If you had such strengths, would you want such a job?

Re: Learning how to attract women to web development

#70

Post by nollidge »

unreal37 wrote: post #61
nollidge wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is unjust and can often make problems worse, not better. The status quo is what's unjust. Do you agree? If so, how can correcting for that be unjust?

Having a discriminatory policy is unjust. So changing who you discriminate against is not less unjust.

> So changing who you discriminate against is not less unjust.

I disagree. Discrimination is not always unjust depending on the motivation and the outcomes of it. If the motivation is to correct for existing systemic discrimination, and if it is successful in doing so, I do not see the injustice.

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