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DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

washingtonpost.com

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Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#61

Post by Natsu »

tokenadult wrote: post #2

Surely this can't be legal under existing copyright law. From the article, "The District holds common law copyright, at a minimum, to all relevant intellectual property its city and school employees create, a spokeswoman said." I take it that the school district's lawyer was not consulted before that statement was made, or else the lawyer was a doofus about copyright law. There isn't any "common law copyright," in th…

Incidentally, there is such a thing as common law copyright[1], but it's pretty obscure and I'm not really sure how it could apply here given that none of the works at issue were created before it got preempted in the 1970s. This policy is, quite simply, insane and I can't see what they intend to accomplish here.

While I can at least imagine them being able to get teachers to sign some sort of copyright transfer agreement, I have a really hard time seeing how they're going to be able to get the copyrights of students. Copyright law requires a written memorandum of transfer so what could they do? Tell them to sign a copyright transfer or be expelled?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_copyright

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#62

Post by SEMW »

Angostura wrote: post #40

Are there any amusing ways of hacking this policy? What are the implications, for example of a student preparing a piece of work that breaches the law in some way and then immediately informing the authorities since the school board now owns said work. I can imagine the Board finding themselves owning all kinds of work that 'accidentally' breach copyright. It might be interesting to try and engineer such a 'poison pi…

Happily (or unhappily), the law is applied by humans rather than computers, and isn't very susceptible to that sort of thing.

Also -- 'being the copyright holder of a work that infringes copyright' isn't a thing. If I copy Harry Potter, by the act of copying I'm infringing JKR's copyright. That I assigned copyright of any original works I make to X doesn't make X liable to JKR for that instead of me! (I can't assign JKR's copyright to X - I never had it in the first place).

(Even if I make a derivative work of Harry Potter without permission - so there will be new copyright which can be assigned to X - that doesn't change anything. It just means that you'd need both JKR's and X's permission to copy it. It wouldn't make X liable to JKR).

Not to mention, works doesn't necessarily "belong" to the copyright holder. I may own a painting, but the artist still hold the copyright on it. Wrong's generally aren't about 'belonging', anyway. Most restricted things are acts (e.g. making a copy of a copyrighted work, or communicating it to the public). Possession of an infringing work is usually only a wrong when coupled with e.g. intent to sell.

(IANAL)

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#63

Post by rayiner »

grumps wrote: post #23
russell wrote: post #9

When my son was an undergraduate at UC Berkeley he used to put a copyright notice on all his homework because the University has a similar policy. The policy was legal because students has to agree in order to gain admission. The Prince Georges policy has no legal standing because first graders cant enter into contracts. Apparently nobody contacted a minimally competent lawyer.

I'm not sure that even if a 1st grader could sign a contract that it would be legal. I believe these are public schools, and I think they're legally required to accept students.

Contracts with minors (under 18, not just first graders) are unenforceable (technically: voidable) with very narrow exceptions.

The lesson here is that schools won't do your work for you. They have zero incentive to educate you about you rights. They can tell you the law is whatever sounds convenient for them--they're gambling that people will just go along and not check.

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#64

Post by Evbn »

Retric wrote: post #30
tokenadult wrote: post #2

Surely this can't be legal under existing copyright law. From the article, "The District holds common law copyright, at a minimum, to all relevant intellectual property its city and school employees create, a spokeswoman said." I take it that the school district's lawyer was not consulted before that statement was made, or else the lawyer was a doofus about copyright law. There isn't any "common law copyright," in th…

Further schools are Already legally required to teach students so any contract signed to trade copywrite in exchange for attendance fails to give the parent or student anything thus failing to become a contract. (Contracts require both sides to gain something of value aka consideration.) PS: Schools often run into this issue when trying to set up contracts with students / parents.

Even with consideration, any contract signed by a student under threat of loss of education (which is a civil right), is signed under duress and therefore invalid.

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#65

Post by Evbn »

pyre wrote: post #32
cs702 wrote: post #29

Every time I read something like this, I can't help but feel that society has lost sight that the primary purpose of copyright is to promote and encourage creative endeavors for everyone's benefit [1], not to safeguard individual ownership of 'intellectual property.' Is anyone at this school system even wondering, "does society at large benefit from this?" -- [1] As pyre points out below, this is the case in the US,…

Depends. As I understand it, using copyright for the betterment of society is a British/American view of copyright. Elsewhere in Europe it's seen as an author's right to control one's work.

But those "moral rights" are generally not transferable to others.

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#66

Post by Evbn »

Fire30 wrote: post #22
jiggy2011 wrote: post #6

Why would you want to own the IP for a bunch of crappy school projects?

I made an app for my county's online grade book and would definitely hate it if my app was considered the county's work now. This is somewhat scary because my county(Loudoun) is close to Prince Georges.

Different states. Very different states.

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#67

Post by derleth »

tedunangst wrote: post #53
DanBC wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a school tells you that you can't do what's right by your child because "it's the law," ask for the citation of the law. If it's really a law, there is a citation, and the law can be looked up. In the United States, under its Anglo-American system of law, the default assumption is individual liberty (and parents rather than schools acting in the interests of minor children), so make sure to check the specific la…

What are they going to tell the police? "These parents won't let us copyright their children's work, please arrest them."?

Harassment. Making a scene, also known as disturbing the peace. Refusing to leave, which amounts to criminal trespass. Maybe even assault, if they're really feeling their oats and are willing to claim you made them fear for their safety.

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#68

Post by Evbn »

tekromancr wrote: post #20
noonespecial wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once they get kids into the system, they have a suprising array of coercive methods to get students to perform. Vague threats about future actions, social shaming through posted grades and holding students back as their class moves on, etc. I grant you that hard-core slackers laugh at this until they can get away with dropping out, but a large majority of students will conform to the physiological pressure to comply.

I literally did no (assigned) work in High School, failed every class, and still graduated a year early. It was about 50% moral outrage at the state of our education system, %40 I could teach myself things better, %10 I was a lazy arsehole.

Graduated from the school, or ditched the school and got a GED from the state?

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#69

Post by tedunangst »

derleth wrote: post #67
tedunangst wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they going to tell the police? "These parents won't let us copyright their children's work, please arrest them."?

Harassment. Making a scene, also known as disturbing the peace. Refusing to leave, which amounts to criminal trespass. Maybe even assault, if they're really feeling their oats and are willing to claim you made them fear for their safety.

If it gets to the point where a school official asks a parent to leave, my advice would be to walk away and call your favorite education lawyer. Do you really think refusing to leave is going to change their mind?

Re: DC-area schools consider copyright policy that takes ownership of students’ work

#70

Post by sliverstorm »

SEMW wrote: post #59
michaelt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some universities have plagiarism detection systems and to tell if you're copying from your buddy who took the course last year they store all submitted work. Often these systems are outsourced to companies like 'turnitin' [1] which can also compare work between universities. Work is stored forever, and if anyone submits something similar to your work, professors get to see both side by side for comparison. In order…

There's a big difference between granting the school a non-exclusive copyright licence (including one that allows them to sublicense to anti-plagiarism companies), and assigning them your copyright. I'd be happy to do the first, but not the second.

The first has pitfalls. For example, is it even possible to grant a non-exclusive, non-revocable license?

So, they are going to prefer the second, as the pitfalls of the second are primary the objections of students.

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