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A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

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Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#61

Post by VLM »

Couple hidden assumptions:

1) Intelligence is a single digit number which can be optimized for, and (even more incredibly unlikely) the interview / hiring process is capable of properly determining and ranking applicants in a ridiculously short amount of time and effort.

2) Beauty (see above, although this isn't as strong of an argument).

I would say based on decades of observation, other than eliminating perhaps the absolute bottom 10% of the population, the overall hiring process especially the interview process is utterly ineffective at determining intelligence or effectiveness. On the other hand, internal promotions either select for that, or brown nosing.

This made the original article rather comical when it claimed hundred of women applied and they seriously think they'll be able to select the smartest?

Clearly, given the proven ineffectiveness overall of corporate hiring process, the average IQ of new hires is going to average 100 or so, regardless if the women are hot or not. So the question becomes given two individuals both IQ of 100 or whatever other ranking system you'd prefer, why do the hot women not get promoted but the men are promoted?

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#62

Post by redthrowaway »

I have a suspicion that there's a cognitive bias at play here, whereby men unconsciously overrate the competence of attractive women and underrate the competence of unattractive women. While I have no evidence to back it up, it does a better job of passing the sniff test than the implicit assertion that men are consciously hiring unqualified women simply because they're attractive.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#63

Post by MartinCron »

j45 wrote: post #53
zacharyvoase wrote: post #31

Another funny fact about the 'halo effect' discussed here: when rating individuals for aptitude on a variety of tasks, straight men have a positive bias towards attractive women, whereas straight women have a negative bias towards attractive women (a kind of 'jealousy' phenomenon). This jealousy phenomenon seems less apparent when it's straight men rating men.

These kinds of biases are also interesting and definitely are present everywhere.

And yet, people are still so eager to buy in to the (often) self-serving meritocracy myth.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#64

Post by kaybe »

edouard1234567 wrote: post #48
wmf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

Agreed, diet is a poor explanation for developed countries. What seems more likely is that the discrimination start earlier, in college or high school where athletic students have an easier time going to the best colleges simply because they are good at a sport (assuming height is correlated to being good at a sport popular in college)

And the difference between universities are by far not as big over here in Europe. (In addition to the sibling comment)

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#65

Post by j45 »

MartinCron wrote: post #63
j45 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of biases are also interesting and definitely are present everywhere.

And yet, people are still so eager to buy in to the (often) self-serving meritocracy myth.

Haha, for sure.

I believe in meritocracies, but am well aware that what people do, say, and say they do is often 3 separate continents.

If you have any thoughts on my other post in this thread, I'd be interested to read.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#66

Post by nitrogen »

wmf wrote: post #24
kvb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's also possible that height and attractiveness are correlated with competence (e.g. because healthy diets as children influence all three attributes), in which case we'd expect to see more tall/attractive people promoted even in a meritocracy (though perhaps not to the observed degree).

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

You might be surprised how common hunger and malnutrition are even in places like the United States.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#67

Post by Osmium »

wmf wrote: post #24
kvb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's also possible that height and attractiveness are correlated with competence (e.g. because healthy diets as children influence all three attributes), in which case we'd expect to see more tall/attractive people promoted even in a meritocracy (though perhaps not to the observed degree).

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

The link is still there in the developed world, though perhaps not in the way you'd think: studies have shown that poorer people are more likely to be overweight. One is left to speculate as to why, but clearly if attractiveness is linked to later performance in life, then many of these people would start off at a further disadvantage as a result.

e.g. just this week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158087

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#68

Post by chimpinee »

Part of the problem is that we mostly don't know how good managers do what they do (and they don't either).

Their knowledge is tacit. And we have to make a tacit judgement when hiring -- which means that memes about gender necessarily exert an unquantifiable influence.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#69

Post by enraged_camel »

Osmium wrote: post #67
wmf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

The link is still there in the developed world, though perhaps not in the way you'd think: studies have shown that poorer people are more likely to be overweight. One is left to speculate as to why, but clearly if attractiveness is linked to later performance in life, then many of these people would start off at a further disadvantage as a result. e.g. just this week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158087

>>One is left to speculate as to why

There is no need for speculation, since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense, which is why lower-income people consume it and become overweight.

Ever noticed how many fast-food restaurants there are in lower-income neighborhoods?

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#70

Post by gambiting »

In my experience, all women that could advance and take a senior/executive/managerial positions declined to do so,because the increased responsibilities that would come with their new position were too much, especially since most of them were young and had a child within the last 5-6 years. It was the case for 100% women I know, both my friends and in my family.
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