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What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

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Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#61
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with Amazon was similar but at the end I was led to ask: "if the 1hr filter process isn't efficient at finding the best candidates, why do they do it?" I think in the end its a balance of basic filtering vs. HR requirements. The process has to be objective and quantifiable so they're covered in the event of anyone calling foul play. Everyone gets the same treatment and there is a paper trail of reasons…

The process only has to look objective and quantifiable. Everyone doesn't get the same treatment, but it's not actionable if the differences are all deniable and have rationalizations like 'culture fit'. People can and do still hire who they want for whatever reason, they just claim some objective reason for it.

Ah yes, I completely agree. I really should have clarified by the HR part in that it is meant for HR's use and not the actual hiring manager/interviewer. If they want to sabotage the interview or otherwise they still can; its just harder to prove-if at all

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#62

I became unreasonably angry while reading this. I guess it struck a nerve with me for some reason. During my interviews, I was very charismatic, confident in my skills, was asked technical question that were things I would need day in day out. I landed the job on 100% of those interviews. There was this one time were the guy kept asking me crap I would never EVER need while working for his company. Binary tree's, lin…

I'm actually insanely jealous of you if a "What the fuck" interview was about binary trees and linked lists. All my interviews have /started/ at that point and gotten way worse. I still get anxiety thinking about some of my job interviews.

May I ask what companies you've been asked these questions for?

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#63
post #39

Interviewer#3: How long you been driving your 2010 Escort? Applicant: About 3 years. Interviewer#3: Sorry, but we are looking for someone with experience of driving 2010 Escort for at least 10 years.

Ha! To add: Interviewer#3: We are looking for someone who knows how operate the navigation screen on the 2010 Escort. Applicant: My car does not have the navigation option installed. Interviewer: Then you do not qualify. Knowing how to work the navigation system is a priority. Applicant: I know how to work navigation systems in general. My car before this one had a navigation system and I learned it pretty quickly. I…

Interviewer#3: We are willing to accept 8 years of education with a Master's or equivalent on the subject of 2010 Escort navigation systems in lieu of 10 years driving experience, for otherwise qualified candidates

Completely off-topic response to your note, but I loved my 2000 Focus and I was almost sad to sell it. It went through air intake hoses on the transmission about as fast as it did gasoline (hyperbole, but the Arizona heat was hell on that little rubber elbow. Fixing it took 5 minutes and cost $3 once a year, though, so as far as chronic car problems went it was pretty mild). It was still running strong after 12 years, and got my wife from Tucson to Seattle as safe as could be :3

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#64

This analogy is backwards... Hiring a programmer is an exchange of company money (or equity, benefits, etc) for a service (programming skills). Renting a car is an exchange of one's own money for a service (use of the car). In this case, the person renting the car would be "interviewing" the car rental company to determine if their service is worth their money.

The analogy is backwards if it is a direct hire by the company. The article used an agency, which gets money from the hiring company for placing the candidate. If you look it at like that then the programmer is the car and the hiring company is the driver.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#65
It's funny in an absurd way. It is absurd because software technology grow significantly faster than car technology. Asking someone to write something with 1998 technology versus 2012 technology is different than asking someone to drive a 1998 model car and a 2012 model car.

It's true, if you have a solid foundation software, you can catch up to the 2012 platform. It will take some time.

So I think it is less that software changed so fast that solid programmers are unable to catch up so much that software changed so fast that recruiters have been unable to keep up.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#66

I became unreasonably angry while reading this. I guess it struck a nerve with me for some reason. During my interviews, I was very charismatic, confident in my skills, was asked technical question that were things I would need day in day out. I landed the job on 100% of those interviews. There was this one time were the guy kept asking me crap I would never EVER need while working for his company. Binary tree's, lin…

Out of curiosity, why do you consider binary trees, linked lists, and pointer arithmetic to be so out of the bounds of possibility for work at a job? Those strike me as skills I might find invaluable in one of my software engineers depending on the job.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#67
post #13

Maybe it's because I just made the egregious mistake of getting drawn into a gun-control debate with a friend and his friends on Facebook, but hyperbolic arguments by analogy feel really silly, cheap, and disingenuous to me right now...

I find that analogies are a poor argumentation technique overall, even if they are not hyperbolic. It's always possible to find similarities between wildly different and even opposing ideas. The details matter.

I find analogies very good for explaining concepts (to make the details easier to understand), but absolutely horrible for debates. Analogies generally over simplify issues, and hackers are particularly bad at arguing the analogy to an absurd extent instead of arguing the main premise behind it. It happens here all the time.

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#68
It's very easy to decry company hiring procedures. That happens all the time here on HN, and for a very good reason--most company hiring procedures are not based on research and are demonstrably suboptimal for hiring the best people. We discuss this a lot on Hacker News because many of us have been looking for jobs or looking for people to hire some time in our adult lives. From participants in earlier discussions I have learned about many useful references on the subject, which I have gathered here in a FAQ file. The review article by Frank L. Schmidt and John E. Hunter, "The Validity and Utility of Selection Models in Personnel Psychology: Practical and Theoretical Implications of 85 Years of Research Findings," Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 124, No. 2, 262-274

http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%...

sums up, current to 1998, a meta-analysis of much of the HUGE peer-reviewed professional literature on the industrial and organizational psychology devoted to business hiring procedures. There are many kinds of hiring criteria, such as in-person interviews, telephone interviews, resume reviews for job experience, checks for academic credentials, personality tests, and so on. There is much published study research on how job applicants perform after they are hired in a wide variety of occupations.

http://www.siop.org/workplace/employment%20testing/testtypes...

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: If you are hiring for any kind of job in the United States, prefer a work-sample test as your hiring procedure. If you are hiring in most other parts of the world, use a work-sample test in combination with a general mental ability test.

The overall summary of the industrial psychology research in reliable secondary sources is that two kinds of job screening procedures work reasonably well. One is a general mental ability (GMA) test (an IQ-like test, such as the Wonderlic personnel screening test). Another is a work-sample test, where the applicant does an actual task or group of tasks like what the applicant will do on the job if hired. (But the calculated validity of each of the two best kinds of procedures, standing alone, is only 0.54 for work sample tests and 0.51 for general mental ability tests.) Each of these kinds of tests has about the same validity in screening applicants for jobs, with the general mental ability test better predicting success for applicants who will be trained into a new job. Neither is perfect (both miss some good performers on the job, and select some bad performers on the job), but both are better than any other single-factor hiring procedure that has been tested in rigorous research, across a wide variety of occupations. So if you are hiring for your company, it's a good idea to think about how to build a work-sample test into all of your hiring processes.

Because of a Supreme Court decision in the United States (the decision does not apply in other countries, which have different statutes about employment), it is legally risky to give job applicants general mental ability tests such as a straight-up IQ test (as was commonplace in my parents' generation) as a routine part of hiring procedures. The Griggs v. Duke Power, 401 U.S. 424 (1971) case

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=8655598674229196...

interpreted a federal statute about employment discrimination and held that a general intelligence test used in hiring that could have a "disparate impact" on applicants of some protected classes must "bear a demonstrable relationship to successful performance of the jobs for which it was used." In other words, a company that wants to use a test like the Wonderlic, or like the SAT, or like the current WAIS or Stanford-Binet IQ tests, in a hiring procedure had best conduct a specific validation study of the test related to performance on the job in question. Some companies do the validation study, and use IQ-like tests in hiring. Other companies use IQ-like tests in hiring and hope that no one sues (which is not what I would advise any company). Note that a brain-teaser-type test used in a hiring procedure could be challenged as illegal if it can be shown to have disparate impact on some job applicants. A company defending a brain-teaser test for hiring would have to defend it by showing it is supported by a validation study demonstrating that the test is related to successful performance on the job. Such validation studies can be quite expensive. (Companies outside the United States are regulated by different laws. One other big difference between the United States and other countries is the relative ease with which workers may be fired in the United States, allowing companies to correct hiring mistakes by terminating the employment of the workers they hired mistakenly. The more legal protections a worker has from being fired, the more reluctant companies will be about hiring in the first place.)

The social background to the legal environment in the United States is explained in many books about hiring procedures

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=SRv-GZkw6...

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=SRv-GZkw6...

Some of the social background appears to be changing in the most recent few decades, with the prospect for further changes.

http://intl-pss.sagepub.com/content/17/10/913.full

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/Fryer_R...

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=frfUB3GWl...

Previous discussion on HN pointed out that the Schmidt & Hunter (1998) article showed that multi-factor procedures work better than single-factor procedures, a summary of that article we can find in the current professional literature, for example "Reasons for being selective when choosing personnel selection procedures" (2010) by Cornelius J. König, Ute-Christine Klehe, Matthias Berchtold, and Martin Kleinmann:

"Choosing personnel selection procedures could be so simple: Grab your copy of Schmidt and Hunter (1998) and read their Table 1 (again). This should remind you to use a general mental ability (GMA) test in combination with an integrity test, a structured interview, a work sample test, and/or a conscientiousness measure."

http://geb.uni-giessen.de/geb/volltexte/2012/8532/pdf/prepri...

But the 2010 article notes, looking at actual practice of companies around the world, "However, this idea does not seem to capture what is actually happening in organizations, as practitioners worldwide often use procedures with low predictive validity and regularly ignore procedures that are more valid (e.g., Di Milia, 2004; Lievens & De Paepe, 2004; Ryan, McFarland, Baron, & Page, 1999; Scholarios & Lockyer, 1999; Schuler, Hell, Trapmann, Schaar, & Boramir, 2007; Taylor, Keelty, & McDonnell, 2002). For example, the highly valid work sample tests are hardly used in the US, and the potentially rather useless procedure of graphology (Dean, 1992; Neter & Ben-Shakhar, 1989) is applied somewhere between occasionally and often in France (Ryan et al., 1999). In Germany, the use of GMA tests is reported to be low and to be decreasing (i.e., only 30% of the companies surveyed by Schuler et al., 2007, now use them)."

Integrity tests have limited validity standing alone, but appear to have significant incremental validity when added to a general mental ability test or work-sample test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_integrity_testing

http://apps.opm.gov/ADT/Content.aspx?page=3-06&JScript=1

http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk2/1990/9042/9042.PDF

http://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/research/chr/pubs/reports...

Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?

#70

I became unreasonably angry while reading this. I guess it struck a nerve with me for some reason. During my interviews, I was very charismatic, confident in my skills, was asked technical question that were things I would need day in day out. I landed the job on 100% of those interviews. There was this one time were the guy kept asking me crap I would never EVER need while working for his company. Binary tree's, lin…

Out of curiosity, why do you consider binary trees, linked lists, and pointer arithmetic to be so out of the bounds of possibility for work at a job? Those strike me as skills I might find invaluable in one of my software engineers depending on the job.

While I can't speak for the OP, in that situation, I would take this to mean that they aren't sure of the skills they actually need so they're asking general questions that may or may not reveal whether or not we (the company and myself) are a good match.

Granted, if they ask a few of those and then jump right in with more specific questions I would just count that as the qualifier/anti-BS filter.

If I was only given general softball 100 series CS course questions I'd probably end up trying to wrestle more info about the position out of the interviewer unless I was really hard up for a job and was willing to put up with potentially unfulfilling work for a while.

Edit: Grammar

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