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Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

sivers.org

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Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#61

Post by drucken »

I do not see the point of using SRS in something like programming.

Unlike a human natural language, there is little value in trying to memorise extreme details without the trial of placing them in an application context. As for new concepts, the value flows from the mere effort of initial understanding and any consequent usage. Meanwhile, the core of a programming language is almost always easily learned just by using it directly.

Of course, an SRS usage as described could be very useful for other contexts, e.g. remembering programming code snippets or concepts for the purpose of interviews.

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#62

Post by ippisl »

Here's a link to someone's flash card for learning web-dev(variety of subjects, 6000 cards) :

http://www.oxbridgenotes.co.uk/other/web_development_flashca...

Here's a link to a blog post by him describing the technique for programming:

http://www.jackkinsella.ie/2011/12/05/janki-method.html

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#63

Post by DennisP »

amix wrote: post #14

I have been programming for the last 15 years and I still sometimes look things up, even in languages I use daily. I would not really change this, since if I use it often I will remember it - - and if not, it's just one search away. I think memorizing random facts is a really bad way to become a better programmer - - much better ways is to solve problems and read expert code (via ex. GitHub). Regarding the memorizati…

Here's a really good article on the staged memory technique, and the guy who first popularized it: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_woznia...

It sounds very effective but only if you make time for it every day. Combining this with the "Moonwalking" techniques might be best of all.

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#64

Post by urlwolf »

I'm working on an coder app that uses SRS. More like 'Twitter for code, with SRS'. I want to 'follow' people who produce good cards, and get their feedback on the cards I make. This would make it superior to just having a snippets.txt file that I eventually import into Anki. Killer search, with tags, would make it better than github gist (although this will be integrated)...

Oh, and the scheduler is taylor made for code (code chunks usage is different from word usage, which means the equation parameters optimized for word learning won't work).

Contact me if you want to know more (see profile).

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#66

Post by hackinthebochs »

capisce wrote: post #51
hackinthebochs wrote: post #27

As others have mentioned, its less about the syntax of a language and more about the plethora of libraries that is the real boon when it comes to using a programming language. It has been said that the majority of a tough problem is worked out unconsciously. If we eschew memorization for "just in time" methods, we are essentially putting a hard limit on the type and difficulty of problems we're capable of solving. I…

"I personally think the amount of library functions memorized is the biggest difference between average programmers and the so-called 10x programmers." I don't know, what about the ability to think outside the box, a solid grasp of the fundamentals, or the capability to understand and create high level abstractions? Seems like you're saying the ability to glue together a bunch of library functions is what classifies…

The point is that the more of the details you have committed to memory, the better your able to "think outside of the box" because your limited cognitive capacity is not bogged down by the minutia. The analogy of fluency in natural language I think is very relevant. The difference in complexity of thought between someone fluent in a language vs someone just learning isn't a matter of intelligence, its a matter of having the building blocks of thought committed to memory. The more of the details that are second nature, the higher level of thought that results. I don't see why this is any different when it comes to programming.

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#67

Post by hackinthebochs »

ema wrote: post #40
hackinthebochs wrote: post #27

As others have mentioned, its less about the syntax of a language and more about the plethora of libraries that is the real boon when it comes to using a programming language. It has been said that the majority of a tough problem is worked out unconsciously. If we eschew memorization for "just in time" methods, we are essentially putting a hard limit on the type and difficulty of problems we're capable of solving. I…

> The more of the heavy lifting you can do unconsciously, a vastly higher level of output one is able to produce for the same amount of mental effort. I agree, but working from the standard library has it backwards. One should subconsciously know what is in principle possible and then look up/remember how it's called in the language you are currently working in, and if it is not there implement it yourself.

But the act of searching and evaluating the results limits your cognitive capacity for building even greater abstractions. If you already have some standard set of implementations memorized that frees up your mind to use those pieces as building blocks for new, grander structures. As you fill your working memory with minutia, the larger abstractions are bumped out which makes it harder or impossible to create new abstractions using the higher level building blocks.

I get the resistance to memorization--I am the laziest SOB I know (and being in the company of programmers, that's no small feat). I got through college almost never taking notes and by just understanding concepts. It worked great for some subjects, namely math, CS, physics, etc. But one thing a math professor said one time in a higher level course for math majors that stuck with me: "If you don't memorize what came before, you will never be able to make new discoveries". In hard math it is expected to memorize the results that came before as this is the only way to discover patterns between them and create new associations.

I think the same applies to programming. Your mind can only hold and manipulate so many units of information at a time. The more abstract those units are, the greater the resulting mental structures will be. We artificially limit ourselves in our resistance to memorization.

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#68

Post by kevinrpope »

jdee wrote: post #36
sivers wrote: post #2

Thanks for posting this. I hope this format is useful to you guys. I actually spent the last two days making a video of this, with screen recordings of using Anki and such, and then felt it's a lot more efficient to just get the info on a static HTML page instead. Any advice appreciated. - Derek

In our extensive user testing we have seen our users make great gains by using SRS. In blind Ruby coding tests we have seen users complete them faster with more confidence in their abilities and results they generate. Got some great data and numbers on exactly how much advantage learning this way gives you. Plan to release it when we launch in a couple of weeks. We are http://www.codesonic.com/ by the way.

> In blind Ruby coding tests we have seen users complete them faster with more confidence in their abilities and results they generate.

Are these users' results actually better? In other words, is their higher level of confidence justified?

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#69

Post by gwern »

dermotbrennan wrote: post #41
hackinthebochs wrote: post #27

As others have mentioned, its less about the syntax of a language and more about the plethora of libraries that is the real boon when it comes to using a programming language. It has been said that the majority of a tough problem is worked out unconsciously. If we eschew memorization for "just in time" methods, we are essentially putting a hard limit on the type and difficulty of problems we're capable of solving. I…

The problem is that languages and especially libraries change too frequently. A doctor can learn the name of every bone in the body and that knowledge will for the rest of his life. In programming, there are very few things that will still be the same in 20+ years and we have no idea what those things are. It depends on the field but things can change so much within 2 or 3 years that its just not worth memorizing eve…

The timespan of change doesn't matter; the question, as always, is whether the benefits outweigh the cost.

Now, the cost is approximately http://www.gwern.net/Spaced%20repetition#what-to-add ); so the question is, does not knowing something you could've put into a flashcard - the consequences of not knowing it, the time it takes to look it up, whether you will even know to look it up, etc - outweighs the cost of a few minutes' review over that time period.

I think for a lot of stuff this can be true: shell scripting is not going away in 20 years, for example. If you're programming in it routinely, a language you will use for only 10 years can be worth memorizing for a while. If you're using a tool every day for the next year, there's going to be a lot worth memorizing there too.

Re: Memorizing a programing language using spaced repetition software

#70

Post by gwern »

kumthekar wrote: post #35

Interleaved and spaced practice is a very powerful learning and knowledge retention technique. Some of recent findings in cognitive science has given credence to this approach. If anyone is interested here is the link to one of the research papers. http://uweb.rc.usf.edu/~drohrer/pdfs/Taylor&Rohrer2010AC... I think memorization doesn't really help understand the fundamentals of any topic. Rote memorization can only g…

> I think memorization doesn't really help understand the fundamentals of any topic. Rote memorization can only get you so far. As concepts get harder and complex, dependence on mere memorization leaves a lot of holes in the understanding of any subject matter.

The existing research says that spaced repetition helps with abstracting and generalizing understanding as well as 'rote memorization': http://www.gwern.net/Spaced%20repetition#abstraction

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