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C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

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Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#61

Post by noblethrasher »

Locke1689 wrote: post #56
nahname wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# truly is one of the diamonds in the Microsoft software dirt heap. It is unfortunate that there isn't something Microsoft sanctioned like UIKit for dotnet. However, I think ReactiveUI ( http://www.reactiveui.net/ ) is quite close and reasonable popular. This does lead into the other serious detriment for dotnet, open source. There is very little going on there because the majority of the community doesn't actively…

FYI, C# is not an MSR project.

No it's not. But generics came straight out of MSR while LINQ was heavily informed by Cω, an MSR research language.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#62

Post by rbanffy »

misnome wrote: post #4

I recently started using C#, having not programmed for windows in years, and have to admit I'm greatly impressed by it. It really feels modern, well designed, and very flexible and powerful, in too many ways to list. Unfortunately, I'm finding the .NET libraries that I'm using not quite so well designed - Working with windows forms specifically. Fortunately, a lot of the third party libraries seem pretty well designe…

Curious: what were you using before?

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#64

Post by dbattaglia »

pixie_ wrote: post #39
dbattaglia wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Windows/Client UI side, I think you may want to check out WPF. Winforms is exactly what you said, a thin Win32 wrapper in .Net (which is why I found it easy, already knowing some C Win32 APIs and MFC). WPF takes some times to wrap your head around, I still haven't done it, but it seems like a better way to go. Of course now we have Windows 8/WinRT so who knows what's going to happen to WPF.

WPF does take time to wrap your head around because it's more complicated, and in a lot of cases writing business apps (which most straight windows apps are) there is no need for all the 'power' WPF provides. WinForms is easy to develop using just the GUI designer. WPF you often need to mix your development between the form designiner and the XAML code itself. It's a needless headache. Also WinForms GUI designer tran…

The xaml/designer issue is pretty much what stopped me from diving too far into wpf. Usually if I'm doing Wimdows apps these days it's some utility/internal tool for work, and it's just sooo much quicker for me to whip something up in winforms ( with a nice easy click once deploy). But for something customer facing I would definitely spend the time to learn wpf. I believe the Github GUI app is WPF and that has a pretty cool interface that would be tricky to pull off in winforms (on a side note, I felt really cheesy at first using it over the command line but now I'm hooked).

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#65

Post by kvb »

lmm wrote: post #53
rprasad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

>That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Have you got a source for that? AIUI under UK law the concept of promissory estoppel only exists in the context of an agreement in which the other party has received consideration. Not having paid MS anything, I don't see how that can apply here.

In the US, my understanding is that consideration is necessary for contract formation, but by contrast promissory estoppel applies only when there is no consideration. A quick perusal of Wikipedia's coverage of the topic [1] makes it look like the UK's treatment is roughly similar.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel_(English_law)#Promisso...

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#66

Post by Teckla »

mfenniak wrote: post #24
tinco wrote: post #10

Quite deservedly so, you can't argue with statistics! Anyway, I saw something interesting in the graph. If you just look at C and C#, then in 2011 you notice that where C made a sharp decline, C# made an almost equally sharp incline. Are these movements correlated? What happened in 2011 that made a bunch of wannabe (since they look for C tutorial) C programmers suddenly turn to wannabe C# programmers? I realise it ma…

I wonder if that's when Google started recognizing that "C#" wasn't a typo of "C". :-) C# has always been a PITA to search for (although, maybe not as bad as 'Go').

"I wonder if that's when Google started recognizing that "C#" wasn't a typo of "C". :-) C# has always been a PITA to search for (although, maybe not as bad as 'Go')."

When searching for Go related information, use "golang" instead of "go".

e.g., golang channels; golang web sockets; golang slices; etc.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#67

Post by tkellogg »

MortenK wrote: post #51
tkellogg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reasonable maturity of WCF Being a user of WCF, I'm sorry to say, it's terrible. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking WCF is fit for production. This goes for pretty much the whole C#/.NET ecosystem. The Microsoft tools are severely lacking in good design principles and the open source tools are amazing and life changing but don't have the mindshare to be revolutionary. This is mostly just a fact of Microsoft be…

The entirery of the centralized European visa, asylum and police systems runs on WCF and C#. These systems are used constantly every day by a large part, if not the majority of European embassies, consulates, immigration ministries, foreign ministries and police departments. Not ready for production?

The reason for my stern words is that there are crashing bugs that have caused us a lot of headaches. For one, if something goes wrong during serialization/deserization, the response crashes and no status code or error message is returned. So aside from the trademark Microsoft unintelligible design, you also have to deal with crashing bugs that won't be fixed for years, if ever.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#68

Post by tshepang »

nahname wrote: post #32
misnome wrote: post #4

I recently started using C#, having not programmed for windows in years, and have to admit I'm greatly impressed by it. It really feels modern, well designed, and very flexible and powerful, in too many ways to list. Unfortunately, I'm finding the .NET libraries that I'm using not quite so well designed - Working with windows forms specifically. Fortunately, a lot of the third party libraries seem pretty well designe…

C# truly is one of the diamonds in the Microsoft software dirt heap. It is unfortunate that there isn't something Microsoft sanctioned like UIKit for dotnet. However, I think ReactiveUI ( http://www.reactiveui.net/ ) is quite close and reasonable popular. This does lead into the other serious detriment for dotnet, open source. There is very little going on there because the majority of the community doesn't actively…

Luckily, the Stack Exchange guys open source some of their creations: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2012/02/stack-exchange-open-so.... I would expect that they are of good quality, given the reputation of the company.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#69

Post by MortenK »

tinco wrote: post #57
MortenK wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entirery of the centralized European visa, asylum and police systems runs on WCF and C#. These systems are used constantly every day by a large part, if not the majority of European embassies, consulates, immigration ministries, foreign ministries and police departments. Not ready for production?

That something is used in production does not mean it is fit for production. Do you have any sources that confirm that this system is in fact reliable? That all of Europes police departments, foreign ministries and embassies use this for international communication puts it at the scale of a smallish web application. The people that use these systems come from a system where data like this is requested by telephone an…

If these systems were not reliable the 500 million tourists visiting the EU last year would not have been able to get a visa or not be able to pass border control points. That's just the visa specific parts, so yeah you could say it's somewhat reliable.

The users being used to telephone and fax being the reason they are okay with WCF? Maybe in the 80's, but it's been a while since then.

We are talking 10 mill+ daily transactions as a low brow estimate. A transaction in this case being a bit more complex than the page viewing of a cat picture. These are systems with dev and maintenance teams of hundreds and hundreds of deveLopers globally, working for 5-10 years. To refer to this as the scale of a smallish web app, well...

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#70

Post by misnome »

rbanffy wrote: post #62
misnome wrote: post #4

I recently started using C#, having not programmed for windows in years, and have to admit I'm greatly impressed by it. It really feels modern, well designed, and very flexible and powerful, in too many ways to list. Unfortunately, I'm finding the .NET libraries that I'm using not quite so well designed - Working with windows forms specifically. Fortunately, a lot of the third party libraries seem pretty well designe…

Curious: what were you using before?

I haven't been developing for windows, but I'm most comfortable in Python, Objective-C and C++, having used all three for work.

I haven't used C++11 yet, because the project I work on is tied to an old compiler version, but the one thing I found when doing some iOS development this week was that I really, really missed the declaration type inference (var).

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