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Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

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Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#61

Post by bsg75 »

gonzo wrote: post #51
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I want teachers to focus on teaching our kids (and some can't even do that... 'nother topic). I would rather have the protection of our kids left to people who are trained and ready for that. One thing is securing entry to the school. It sounds like the CT school had measures in place to keep out the random creep that might wander in but that didn't stop a kid from blasting his way in. Would bullet-proof gla…

perhaps we could employ retired police officers as "school guards". They have the training. Many of them are still in their 40s and 50s.

In some states, non-active LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) would be prevented by law from being armed, especially as private citizens on school property. H.R.218 is not widely accepted enough to provide for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety...)

In my state many middle and high schools have assigned SROs (School Resource Officers / Deputies), whose primary role is not protection, but to work with students. The secondary benefit is the presence an armed, actively trained LEO who could respond to an active shooter.

While many would decry the costs of adding these SROs to every Elementary - High School, the cost would likely be insignificant (in terms of money and effect) to turning schools into secured facilities (with prison like barriers).

http://www.tricities.com/news/local/article_a66f42d4-4806-11...

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#62

Post by _sentient »

Steko wrote: post #47

"I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem... That’s an average of 18 deaths per year. For comparison, three times as many die from lightning strikes." This is a bullshit red herring designed to ignore 99.8% of the gun homicides that take place each year in the US [1]. Gun control works to control much more than just mass shootings. [1] Using 8K as a rough estimate for annual gun deaths…

I think it's actually valid, as the author then goes on to say; "From a logical viewpoint, we should be more concerned with gun crime in general. If gun crime is a significant problem, then gun control could be a solution to that problem."

He's not cherry picking stats to make the matter of gun crime appear less serious. He's addressing the impending tidal wave of emotion in response to the events in Newtown, which happened to be a mass shooting.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#63

Post by RyanMcGreal »

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

America has got to be the only country in the industrialized world where it seems reasonable to respond to mass shootings (and shootings in general) by suggesting that more people should have guns.

Here's a scatter plot of firearms per 100,000 and gun homocides per 100 for OECD countries:

http://i.imgur.com/ZAI3T.png

Needless to say, the dot in the top right corner is the USA>

Data is from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homi...

(Note: Mexico is excluded because its rate of gun violence is such a startling outlier that it squashes all the other values.)

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#64

Post by Anechoic »

pc86 wrote: post #28
ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

DC v. Heller: "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#65

Post by mc32 »

csense wrote: post #38
mc32 wrote: post #2

Author asks: "I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem. How does it compare to other issues such as preventable diseases, regular crime, terrorism?" But is that the best comparison? What about comparing it to frequency and impact in other countries? When we want to evaluate the effectiveness of a treatment, we don't measure efficacy against the treatment to a completely different diseas…

> But is that the best comparison? Yes, it is. You have a limited amount of resources -- in this case, tax dollars and political capital. If you're spending dollars or votes to save lives, you should spend them on the thing which saves the most lives per dollar spent. > What about comparing it to frequency and impact in other countries? Another commenter on this article said that this comparison indicates that gun co…

I think that makes sense.

I think what I was reading sounded like "there might be less gun violence over there, but don't look into why, it's not worth your while".

My thought was that maybe it is worth our while to look into why.

when one decides upon controlling guns, it would be prudent to grandparent people in. New rights revocation would only be applied to the upcoming generations. This way you don't alienate a population from something they hold dear, but would ensure whatever you're enacting becomes effective over time.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#66

Post by throwit1979 »

Steko wrote: post #47

"I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem... That’s an average of 18 deaths per year. For comparison, three times as many die from lightning strikes." This is a bullshit red herring designed to ignore 99.8% of the gun homicides that take place each year in the US [1]. Gun control works to control much more than just mass shootings. [1] Using 8K as a rough estimate for annual gun deaths…

Perhaps you should read the rest of the article in which the author examines the non-mass-shooting gun related homicides.

The reddit attention span appears to be alive and well at HN.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#67

Post by boboblong »

rickmb wrote: post #58

The scale of the problem isn't in itself an argument for doing or not doing something about. The emotional impact is most definitely an important factor, and not something that can simply be argued away with numbers. Most people don't live in fear of cancer or lightning strikes, unless they find themselves in the middle of an asbestos filled building or right underneath a lightning storm. The knowledge however that s…

Opponents of gun control feel exactly the same way: they don't want to have to live in fear.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#68

Post by evolve2k »

> 'Mass killings are as inevitable as lightning deaths..'

Not so.

The New York Times has referred to Australia's gun laws as a "road map" for the US, saying that "in the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-17/us-urged-to-consider-a...

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#69

Post by platform »

rictic wrote: post #22
Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

It is unlikely though. Basically if this logic have worked -- airline pilots would not have been armed (after 9/11). However many are, and many plain-dressed armed security agents board planes.

Schools, summer camps, sporting events, theaters, amusement parks, universities and other so-called gun-free zones -- are soft targets that are going to be exploited by criminals/terrorists (one just has to look at where those horrible acts were comitted in Russia (Beslan), Norway, US)

Just like the planes where in 9/11.

so training and arming a portion of the staff that is operating the facilities, as well as securing access -- is essential

Praying, reading books, closing doors and closets -- are not effective measures against evil-souled animals who are there to end their lives and to take as many people with them as possible.

There are schools that have been taking steps in this direction.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/15/5056005/one-texas-school-le...

I would also venture to say that media coverage must change the protocol in cover this kinds of events things like a) name of the criminal must not be announced b) reasons/intent must not be announced/mentioned/discussed on broadcast networks c) number of victims

so that the media does not feed the possible copy cats.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#70

Post by jwhitlark »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #36
rictic wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

Exactly. I want teachers to focus on teaching our kids (and some can't even do that... 'nother topic). I would rather have the protection of our kids left to people who are trained and ready for that. One thing is securing entry to the school. It sounds like the CT school had measures in place to keep out the random creep that might wander in but that didn't stop a kid from blasting his way in. Would bullet-proof gla…

Fortresses, particularly those without an active defense, have a bad track record. Shields don't work without the ability to hit back. Or, as the saying goes, "It takes two sides to have a battle, but only one to have a massacre."
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