Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do we really want the upper echelons of society to be made up of neurotic workaholics? Do we really want universities to be gate keepers here at all?
We want no more universities, as it's just producing socialists unless you're in math / sciences, and if you're in the sciences it's wasting productive time in industry.
University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
61–70 of 102 posts
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…
Sad state that of affairs when comments like this appear and have affirmative replies. Shows how socially unaware and one-dimensional a Hacker News is.
Can you explain how that's "socially unaware" or "one-dimensional"?
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#63Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#64When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…
We need to normalize a gap year, or at least a gap semester. Young adults need a break after the pressure of graduation and college admissions, and whether it’s work or travel, some perspective helps ground the college experience and make it a choice instead of an obligation. In my experience, many freshmen treated their first year as a gap year anyways, especially if they took difficult senior classes. First year cl…
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or h…
Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#66This has the knock-on effect that it becomes impossible to excel in your first semester. Both of my kids worked hard and were prepared for college, and they did very well their first years, as they were used to the pace and level of information. It's something they are proud of, and it gave them confidence in their future lives. By eliminating the chance to excel, we make life worse for students who should be standin…
> This has the knock-on effect that it becomes impossible to excel in your first semester. No, it eliminates the grade and GPA award for excelling. You can still excel, unless you absolutely require external validation for your work. And even then, it's still college, professors notice top performers even if they aren't giving them an A+++++ and have to give them a Pass instead.
At the larger schools (like Michigan), professors (if a professor is actually grading the class, and not an adjunct or grad student) are hardly going to remember individual performances on freshman exams, or even pay much attention.
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#67To those saying this is soft: https://registrar.mit.edu/classes-grades-evaluations/grades/... If you want to say MIT is soft. Feel free.
However, Caltech and MIT have a reason for this that probably doesn't apply to a large (35000 undergraduate) public university like UM.
Caltech, MIT, and UM all have incoming classes that did very well in high school. Around 88% of the UM class was in the top 10% of high school. It is 96+% for Caltech and MIT.
At all three most students will be going from having been one of the top students at every school they have attended to a school where they are more average. This drop on average will be bigger at Caltech and MIT because their students are clustered more tightly toward the top of their high school class.
Another thing that makes the drop bigger at Caltech (and MIT?) is that UM has a way more flexible schedule. For example if you take physics in your first year, they have I believe three different courses for that. One if for people majoring in life sciences and emphasizes the physics most useful in those areas. Another is for engineers and others doing practical applications. It is more rigorous. The third is for physics majors.
Compare to Caltech. First, there is no "if you take physics". It is a first year requirement. Second, there is just one course. Go to Caltech to major in English (which does occasionally happen! [1]) and your first year you are taking the same required physics and math courses that people there for physics and math are taking. Third, because admissions specifically looked for people with very strong math/science ability, the professors don't have to slow down. Those courses cram a lot into a short time compared to even the courses meant for people majoring in their subject at less specialized schools.
The net effect is that for a top high school student Caltech and MIT are much bigger academic shocks than UM because even though at UM you can find comparable courses structural differences due to its size and its much bigger number of students mean it doesn't make you take a bunch of rigorous courses right from the start at an insane pace.
[1] It is rare. The reasons some have done it include:
• They intend to be science writers or science journalists.
• They intend to go to medical school. Medical school admissions committees like English majors and they like a hard science background.
• They intend to go to law school. An English major with a serious hard science education and a law degree is a good fit for patent law or for going into science policy work.
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#68Johns Hopkins has had this since forever
But then I was just horrified to read apparently they got rid of that system in 2017 [1], and now it's a normal letter grade?! Assuming that Hopkins still skews quite harshly on grading, that's an awful regression.
[1] https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2016/05/university-to-...
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#69To those saying this is soft: https://registrar.mit.edu/classes-grades-evaluations/grades/... If you want to say MIT is soft. Feel free.
Michigan also dropped their mandate for ACT / SAT to obtain admission. So, yes, I would say that's pretty broken. Combined with systematic grade inflation American universities as a whole are removing any real feedback about student preparation, level of effort, or ability.
Growing up with no one in my family having gone to college I had no idea how any of this stuff worked or anybody to tell me its important. Eventually I moved to a middle class suburb and saw kids hire private tutors for it. Meanwhile I remember 2 days before I had mine scheduled and had to find someone to beg to drive me there. I'm quite thankful that universities acknowledge how silly it is to assess a student's aptitudes from a single test score like that.
I think personal essays and a more holistic assessment is a great alternative but I'm worried about the LLM age and the limits it introduces to that as well. Perhaps interviews are the future. It would certainly better prepare students for the real world
Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'
#70This sort of coddling and weak policy is setting students up for a rude awaking when they get into the professional workforce.
Anyways, the biggest tech companies in Michigan are automakers, Dow chemicals, and Whirlpool. These are all respectable places and have different expectations than X or OpenAI or companies like that.