UBI is the inevitable future. We are now living in a time period in history when we wait for government bureaucrats to finally realise that UBI is a right and not a privilege. At this moment more than half of employment can be classified as “bullshit jobs” - inconsequential that would make no difference if they disappeared one day, created to satisfy the requirements of the capitalist economy. We have been productive…
Why do we assume everyone should be working?
61–70 of 123 posts
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#62> I was talking to a friend of mine and I asked this. She said “of course everyone should be working, I mean, I’d like to be able to buy more stuff” This sounds like the type of thing you hear from a person sipping a rare single-origin pour-over after their pilates class in Palo Alto. In the real world, the average person would probably tell you something like "of course everyone should be working, I mean, I need to…
> if you had that system, we have no idea whether or not the masses will be content enough to stay sane and peaceful. Belgium, the Netherlands and a lot of European countries, have a "leefloon" or "bijstand". It is a monthly payment from the government if you have no other sources of income or wealth. The name means it is "pay to stay alive". It's not a lot (1518.29 dollars today for a single person), but allows for…
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#63Worth reading rather than reacting to the title. The author is basically arguing that "some people are too stupid to be worth the effort to employee them", not the more familiar way this phrase is used.
i'm sure there are a few people like that and they should be in disability or other government programs. but vast majority do provide value and should be working.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#64> does economics support that statement always? Economics itself is the enemy. It is the source of that statement. It's so ubiquitous that we cannot even conceive of a life without it. The friend wanted scarce things, so naturally she wanted everyone in society working to produce those things for her. Economics arise out of scarcity . There is not enough for everyone, therefore we must economize, we must decide who g…
Scarcity is a timeless fact of life in a finite world, it's not some abstract invention by "economics".
The problem isn't that more people want more things than they can have. The hardest possible life is that of a single human alone on a planet abundant in all natural resources. People and our inventions and our work and our ambitions to improve things for the next generation are the very things that reduce scarcity for other people we share this planet with.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#65> Labor is a resource, like water, and yet we do not drain the oceans with the same fervour as we employ people, trying to find a job for every drop.
This analogy doesn't make any sense! It is fake-poetic nonsense.
> When we have implicit assumptions such as these, it drives our decision-making
The implicit assumption that Labor is like an ocean?
> That if we want more stuff, and better lives, everyone should be working harder?
Every product we see around us, every service provided, is provided by paid or unpaid work. I would rather question that "more stuff equals better lives", but work equals stuff.
> Here is a very simple statement which may sound a bit mean: it is entirely feasible that giving a job to a “stupid” person, regardless of how much we try and train them, might cost the economy more than we benefit, in aggregate. Disagree all you want on the definition of “stupid”, but you cannot deny that such a bar exists,
There is virtually endless work to do. Even a a very stupid (not malicious) person can pick up trash from the street, dog walk doggies, dog sit Alzheimer patients, clean windows, etc. There are sheltered workshops to extract/provide (viewpoints differ) work out of literally intellectually disabled people, even if minimum wage has to be lowered to a single dollar per hour.
It is a valid perspective from the worker to find "stupid" work not prestigious/fulfilling/boring, but it will create economic value.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#66This is assuming that the purpose of "job creating" policies is to create jobs, as opposed to more abstract economic stimulus while trying to win the votes of people who happened to get a new job around that time. It helps if the unemployment rate goes down, because that generates positive reporting, but it's not required. People find new jobs all the time, after all, even when unemployment is rising on net. Without the economic stimulus, most of them would still have a job, though maybe a slightly different one.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#67> does economics support that statement always? Economics itself is the enemy. It is the source of that statement. It's so ubiquitous that we cannot even conceive of a life without it. The friend wanted scarce things, so naturally she wanted everyone in society working to produce those things for her. Economics arise out of scarcity . There is not enough for everyone, therefore we must economize, we must decide who g…
> To fix this, we must somehow achieve the fabled post scarcity society. Automate everything so thoroughly the price of everything becomes literally zero. This destroys the economy. It doesn't matter anymore whether people are working. There is no further need to economize if everything is abundant. sure but the people opposing automation are the people on the left - the socialists and neo-luddities. the ones that ar…
Every socialist wants post scarcity deep down. In fact, it's what Marx promised them since the beginning.
Socialism is an ideological and practical dead end. They must be resisted at all costs. It's still an economic model. They won't destroy the economy, they will centralize it in the hands of the state.
Don't seize the means of production, distribute them. Give everyone an AI and a replicator.
Personal manufacturing capabilities. We must attack things like the very concept of trillion dollar semiconductor fabs. Everybody should be able to make their own things. Just like we can magically conjure up free software on a laptop at home.
> neo-luddities
Don't know enough about this to write coherently about the subject.
> the ones that are for automation are the billionaires
Contemptible, but I believe we have better chances of success if we try to collapse capitalism from within.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if you had that system, we have no idea whether or not the masses will be content enough to stay sane and peaceful. Belgium, the Netherlands and a lot of European countries, have a "leefloon" or "bijstand". It is a monthly payment from the government if you have no other sources of income or wealth. The name means it is "pay to stay alive". It's not a lot (1518.29 dollars today for a single person), but allows for…
Quick AI research: the number of people receiving minimum income benefits in European countries represents under 5% of the population. So I don't think that tells you what happens to society when this becomes a primary source of income for a significant minority if not the majority of people.
> In Belgium, roughly 4.35 million adults (aged 18 and older) are not working out of an adult population of about 9.5 million, around 45%.
Of those, roughly 3.95 million or 40% receive government income above the leefloon.
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#69> does economics support that statement always? Economics itself is the enemy. It is the source of that statement. It's so ubiquitous that we cannot even conceive of a life without it. The friend wanted scarce things, so naturally she wanted everyone in society working to produce those things for her. Economics arise out of scarcity . There is not enough for everyone, therefore we must economize, we must decide who g…
Re: Why do we assume everyone should be working?
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quick AI research: the number of people receiving minimum income benefits in European countries represents under 5% of the population. So I don't think that tells you what happens to society when this becomes a primary source of income for a significant minority if not the majority of people.
If you adjust for all ways people receive minimum income benefits, not just the 'final resort' one, you get > In Belgium, roughly 4.35 million adults (aged 18 and older) are not working out of an adult population of about 9.5 million, around 45%. Of those, roughly 3.95 million or 40% receive government income above the leefloon.