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Incentives are for losers

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61–70 of 129 posts

Re: Incentives are for losers

#61

The game theorists/economists have studied this stuff in depth under the rubric of "mechanism design" or "market design". The relevant concept is "incentive compatibility" where the agents in the system do the right thing (whatever that was intended to be/designed for) because any deviation from that costs them more than playing nice. The Wikipedia article [0] is not yet great but does give the two classic examples o…

My experience tring to map game theory to people's choices in the workplace is that the action taken is typically opposite of the predicted, or optimal, 'game theoretic' action, and often with enormous benefit to that individual.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#62

I remember this book: Punished by Rewards, Alfie Kohn "The basic strategy we use for raising children, teaching students, and managing workers can be summarized in six words: do this and you'll get that. We dangle goodies (from candy bars to sales commissions) in front of people in much the same way that we train a family pet. The quick fix of rewards may seem to be effective, but manipulating people with external in…

We should stop paying people for work, that's also an incentive.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#63
> My real gripe with this line of thinking is it implies that incentives should be obeyed

One individual can ignore incentives. The point of that diagnosis is that you can't build a system on the premise that most people will behave well despite incentives, because many won't. It's a point about systems, not individuals.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#64
His rhetorical "Who could disagree that incentives causes bad behavior?" resolves, in reality, to a shockingly large number of real people. This is fundamentally why I do not share the author's gripe, even if it might be technically true.

The pathologies in our collective decision making at the political level caused by the inability of so many people to give credence to the power of incentives is the problem that needs to be solved, even if, in the author's weird online niche composed of a few thousand people, incentives are occasionally wrongly taken as a moral justification for bad behavior.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#65
post #57

The premise of this article only works because the author has taken an overly narrow definition of an 'incentive' - as if an incentive can only be offered by a social media app for a quick dopamine hit. What's they are missing is that it's all incentives, all the way down . You want to be a good kind person? You feel good when you believe you've demonstrated this - but you're just acting on incentives you've set for…

> without having the time, energy, or incentive to dive deeper into things

I don't think anyone would disagree that survival comes first. But for those who do have the time/energy/money to dive deeper into things, and intentionally choose not to... those people may be worthy of our contempt

Re: Incentives are for losers

#66
The idea of designing incentives far less useful social scientists and policy wonks we're hoping circa 2010.

I agree with and enjoy the overall sentiment of this piece. Incentive are fit losers. BYO incentives is the way to go.

That said, IRL, the structural advantage of external incentives... especially artificially designed ones... Can be near impossible to overcome.

Let's say you are a researcher working in one of the fields tested by 21st century mushiness. Replication failures. P-hacking. An unstructured stream of published research adding up to noise.

This outcome is not just because of publish-or-perish, or other incentive structure. It's also because the field is just hard. Harder than it seems it should be, intuitively.

It seems like science should have uncovered a decent, workable "theory of nutrition" or a promising pathway to one. It hasn't. That means thousands of researchers are working in their little corners... And when they look up from their desk there is no big picture forming. No big project that they are contributing to.

Maybe we just need a new theory, when you research methods.. or something. But... we don't know what that is.

Intrinsic motivation vs academic grind... Facing a near impossible challenge. A good chance of modest success within the pigeon-incetives paradigm... Vs near-guaranteed failure of an alternative, intrinsic motivation path.

Even if you take the intrinsic motivation path... There will probably come a point where you have invested years, achieve nothing... and proudly refusing to publish banal papers like everyone else will seem like folley. This person probably just leaves the field.

Startups are different than the corporations they become. 19th century science is different to modern academia. Trying to replicate qualities is always sysephean.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#67
post #57

The premise of this article only works because the author has taken an overly narrow definition of an 'incentive' - as if an incentive can only be offered by a social media app for a quick dopamine hit. What's they are missing is that it's all incentives, all the way down . You want to be a good kind person? You feel good when you believe you've demonstrated this - but you're just acting on incentives you've set for…

> without having the time, energy, or incentive to dive deeper into things I don't think anyone would disagree that survival comes first. But for those who do have the time/energy/money to dive deeper into things, and intentionally choose not to... those people may be worthy of our contempt

> But for those who do have the time/energy/money to dive deeper into things, and intentionally choose not to... those people may be worthy of our contempt

Feels like an intellectual puritanism. Of course you must spend your time not on frivolities but solely on mind-expanding pursuits...

Re: Incentives are for losers

#68
post #25

I really like the article but I feel like ignoring incentives always costs something. Only people who can afford the cost get to look principled, which turns having money into looking like having character. Everyone he praises in the article has/had a safety net: Sumner was a Harvard-educated senator with inherited standing, the writer himself still had a career after dropping his uni title. The fish metaphor has the…

I usually go around saying to anyone who will listen "incentives are dangerous". Like... you can't avoid them as people are sneaky bastards and will find what the incentives are even if you didn't design any on purpose, but you should be on the lookout always and be damn careful if you ever get the bad idea to introduce any.

> I usually go around saying to anyone who will listen "incentives are dangerous".

Sir, this is a Wendy’s

Re: Incentives are for losers

#69
So the message of it is - "if people have a lot of agency because they have liquid capital and network that allows them to not give a shit about incentives, they usually behave better and create more valuable stuff for society"? I agree with it. But this is almost an uncomfortably far-right take, because this is same as claiming that systemic, generational inequality is a virtue.

Re: Incentives are for losers

#70
post #6

Completely agree. Incentives are for the statistical masses. As thinking individuals we can and should use our awareness and courage to make biggest "good" choices we can bear to. We can't all be zero-waste vegan community organisers lobbying for renewables and free education/healthcare, but I doubt living life with the blinders on leads any kind of moral or spiritual growth or fulfilment either.

> We can't all be zero-waste vegan community organisers lobbying for renewables and free education/healthcare

Why? If you genuinely believe these things righteous and important why can’t everyone do them?

Perhaps because you’re incentivised not to: it’s a waste of your time, someone else can do your share of the campaigning, non-vegan food tastes great etc..

This is exactly how incentives work, not some spineless person in a dark room saying “yes m’lord I’ll torture another child for an extra nickel” as the article portrays.

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