Capitalism has a generational problem. Gen Z and Gen Alpha growing up in an age of austerity while wealth inequality grows out of control will have, and arguably is having, profound effects on just about everything
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How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
61–70 of 122 posts
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#62Most such discussion suffer from an inadequate definition of what is meant by "socialism" vs what is meant by "capitalism". The most important aspect to me is ownership / control of the means of production, and I think there are very interesting compromises to be had in between extremes. What I mean: imagine if it was normal for companies to pay out a large part of their earnings to their employees. This does exist,…
I think I like the suggestion, but it’s firmly on the capitalism end of the spectrum. Profit sharing is one of the incentives I look at when looking for a job. Not too far off from employee stock programs or matching 401k with company stock.
If you had suggested the “public” get a share of the profits then you start touching socialism but then I’d also hate the suggestion.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. We could do - have done - much worse than implementing some good sense social safety net measures. Especially as people advocate for AI and using it to replace/disempower employees.
> People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. That's irrelevant to the point. The 1980s did settle the capitalism vs. socialism debate. The USSR and, perhaps more consequentially, China effectively abandonned socialism because it failed and acknowledged that capitalism, free enterprise, and the free market wa…
> unless you consider that socialism = "social safety net measures", which it isn't
I agree with you that socialism, properly understood, ought to mean something much broader than a social safety net. But not everyone sees it this way.
In my experience, a lot of Americans really do equate social security and welfare as socialism. Or even public education, never mind anything remotely resembling universal healthcare. These people believe that taxation is theft and they're vocal about expressing it. This used to be fringe, but it's a major political movement.
Young Americans have grown up in an environment where anything publicly beneficial is painted as "socialist" by one of the major political parties. Many of them have taken the message to heart.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
The majority of federal government spending is a wealth transfer to old and poor people: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder... That’s also an easy sign of socialism. Just not all of society benefits. Not to mention the state and local level stuff via Medicaid and property tax subsidies for old people, too. And then there’s the implicit monetary policy of putting asset owners ahead of income…
Funny how subsidies to megacorps and tax exemptions are never "wealth transfer" just daily business.
Those are also wealth transfers. I don't have that statistic to easily pull up, but the federal government has a nice website to easily show an example, one that happens to dwarf all the others in dollar amount.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#65Regardless of your actual views on the systems, as a non-american it's absolutely insane that so many people are incapable of thinking of one positive of a socialist economic system. I wouldn't describe myself as either a socialist or a capatalist, but with just a cursory ponder I can think of several benefits to both. The complete inability for critical thinking is quite saddening, and quite worrying considering america's influence.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
The majority of federal government spending is a wealth transfer to old and poor people: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder... That’s also an easy sign of socialism. Just not all of society benefits. Not to mention the state and local level stuff via Medicaid and property tax subsidies for old people, too. And then there’s the implicit monetary policy of putting asset owners ahead of income…
> The majority of federal government spending is a wealth transfer to old and poor people Sorry, but that's a ridiculous take. Thats just like saying that public schools are a wealth transfer from the working class to students, or that health insurance is a wealth transfer to old and sick people. It's neither useful nor precise. Things are never an actual "wealth transfer" when both sides consider it worthwhile-- tha…
>Thats just like saying that public schools are a wealth transfer from the working class to students
>or that health insurance is a wealth transfer to old and sick people
Both of these are also true statements.
>Things are never an actual "wealth transfer" when both sides consider it worthwhile-- that's just an ordinary trade.
It's not an ordinary trade, it's a forced payment via the government's monopoly on violence, which is why it falls into a wealth transfer. I would consider it (mostly) worthwhile when it's students because they turn into future workers.
However, I would prefer to opt out of social security and old age healthcare tax (Medicare) because I will be getting less into the system than I pay into the system. That is an inevitable future due to demographics.
Note that I am not saying wealth transfers are categorically bad, just wanted to point out the hilarity of a country that can spend $1T+ per year on wealth transfers and still be afraid of "socialism". And it's far more than $1T, because the health insurance mandate to not price health insurance based on health risks is another massive wealth transfer probably worth at least another trillion.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Makes me wonder how many of the complaints about capitalism are really about corruption , and if people would have a more favorable view of it if we didn't have this system of interlocking directorships, revolving public/private appointments, regulatory capture, and backroom handshakes between government and corporations that seems to shut many Americans out of the capitalist wealth-creation engine.
The US is not really capitalist, it’s an oligarchy - a small number of people like Larry Ellison essentially control everything. It’s always been like that, even going back to the 19th century and the robber barons of the gilded age
That is the natural end state of capitalism though? Capital begets more capital, eventually concentrating power as far as possible. Sure you get upstarts here and there, particularly with technological innovation, but the trend is always consistent.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Makes me wonder how many of the complaints about capitalism are really about corruption , and if people would have a more favorable view of it if we didn't have this system of interlocking directorships, revolving public/private appointments, regulatory capture, and backroom handshakes between government and corporations that seems to shut many Americans out of the capitalist wealth-creation engine.
The US is not really capitalist, it’s an oligarchy - a small number of people like Larry Ellison essentially control everything. It’s always been like that, even going back to the 19th century and the robber barons of the gilded age
This was by design of the oligarchic founders, who were very skeptical of the majority, so it goes back to the 18th century too.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#69It's not always clear who controls the means of production. It certainly isn't always the people who formally is supposed to - whether we're talking about a "capitalist" or "socialist" government.
Reality check: the workers never control the means of production. Not even in communist states, not even in China. On paper? Sure, paper is forgiving. But the oligarchy, either by party or by money, does what they want. The only enclaves where the workers own it is in small cooperatives (mostly insignificant).
Not sure we can really define China as a communist state, particularly nowadays. Their economy is essentially just state managed capitalism now, which is probably economically closer to facism than it is communism.
Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. We could do - have done - much worse than implementing some good sense social safety net measures. Especially as people advocate for AI and using it to replace/disempower employees.
> People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. That's irrelevant to the point. The 1980s did settle the capitalism vs. socialism debate. The USSR and, perhaps more consequentially, China effectively abandonned socialism because it failed and acknowledged that capitalism, free enterprise, and the free market wa…
> capitalism vs. socialism
I learned that when an American talks about socialism, they usually mean communism and often the accompanying dictatorships that enable this oppressive system. Meanwhile, the social-democratic countries score high on measures of democracy, rule of law, human rights, regulation contra anti-competitive practices, consumer protection, environment protection, etc.
It is also important to understand what capitalism means. The theory assumes free markets, but that requires an enforcer that breaks up monopolies and upholds rules for competition. Lots of cognitive dissonance there for people calling themselves capitalists while at the same time screaming against intervention, but those rather should call themselves libertarians.