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You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

theatlantic.com

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Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#61

Post by irahul »

DanBC wrote: post #60
irahul wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I apologize. Wow. That's the worst non-apology I have ever seen. "I apologize your face happens to be in path of my fist". A pig with lipstick is uglier than the pig without lipstick. But I guess that's what floats your boat. > I assumed What part of "I hope these crazies are minority" was difficult to understand that you went on assuming whatever you assumed? Must you imagine things you want to respond to, and the…

Please stop.

> Please stop.

Neither I nor this forum is subject to your whims.

Use the 'flag' and downvote if that's all you have to say. All you are doing is adding unnecessary clutter.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#62

Post by gordaco »

dagw wrote: post #19
gordaco wrote: post #2

I honestly appreciate the efforts of Swedish people to promote equality, but they're a little misguided. Boys and girls just are different, and it's not only a matter of culture; in fact, I've always thought that cultural differences between men and women arose almost exclusively from biological differences that result in different behaviours (of course, each culture evolves those role differences in varied ways). So…

This isn't representative of the "Swedish people". The political party they mention is tiny fringe party that's never gotten even close to 1% of the vote. The pre-schools they mention are a tiny handful of privately run institution. Calling it state-sponsored is highly misleading since basically all pre-schools are technically state-sponsored since they get some financial compensation based on the number of children…

Of course it's a minority, sorry about the misunderstanding. I meant "some Swedish people", not "the Swedish people".

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#63

Post by boboblong »

belorn wrote: post #44
m_eiman wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? The problem with any stereotype is that it limits choice ("I'm a boy so I -must- play with guns instead of dolls"), which leads to inefficient use of the potential of the next generation. To miss out on a math genius just because she happened to be a girl and was taught that she's too stupid to handle advanced math is detrimental to the advancement of the human race. Boys and gi…

The "girls can't do math" stereotype is not just wrong, its false in the sense that we should just stop saying it. Its more akin to a bad told myth, brining harm where ever its being retold. The #1 preferred profession from a woman in Sweden is economist, based on yearly polls. If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of match except one subject (abstract math), and then men o…

>If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of math except one subject (abstract math)

In other words, women are better than men at complex arithmetic, but men are better than women at mathematics.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#64

Post by belorn »

boboblong wrote: post #63
belorn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "girls can't do math" stereotype is not just wrong, its false in the sense that we should just stop saying it. Its more akin to a bad told myth, brining harm where ever its being retold. The #1 preferred profession from a woman in Sweden is economist, based on yearly polls. If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of match except one subject (abstract math), and then men o…

>If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of math except one subject (abstract math) In other words, women are better than men at complex arithmetic, but men are better than women at mathematics.

If abstract math is the only "pure" mathematics is open to debate :).

On other hand, in 1st, 2th, and 3th year, there are still more women in abstract math classes than men. I do not think any "who is better at what" can be said, beyond the stereotype "women are bad at math" can be explicitly be stated as false.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#66

Post by boboblong »

breakyerself wrote: post #20

Something seriously stinks about this article. I agree that boys should be allowed to act like boys and girls like girls, but I don't see how that's a position that needs to be defended with such a lengthy article. This feels more like some kind of propaganda. I have a really hard time believing the swedes are going batshit crazy trying to repress masculinity wherever they see it, as this article seems to describe. T…

>Gender is something that occurs on a spectrum, but most of the world is still trying to pretend there should only be two boxes to divide us all into.

It might be technically true that gender occurs on a spectrum, but it's also true that the "ends" of the spectrum are heavily populated. In other words, it's a bimodal distribution.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#68

Post by boboblong »

belorn wrote: post #64
boboblong wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If one look at university education, women dominate the class room in every areas of math except one subject (abstract math) In other words, women are better than men at complex arithmetic, but men are better than women at mathematics.

If abstract math is the only "pure" mathematics is open to debate :). On other hand, in 1st, 2th, and 3th year, there are still more women in abstract math classes than men. I do not think any "who is better at what" can be said, beyond the stereotype "women are bad at math" can be explicitly be stated as false.

When people speak of "abstract math", they generally mean mathematics, because they use the term "math" far too loosely. In a very real sense, a person can be taught to "do math" all the way through Calculus III, Linear Algebra, and even Differential Equations and still not have any real aptitude for mathematics.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#69

Post by afuchs »

irahul wrote: post #55
emmapersky wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are putting words into my mouth, and attacking me with an ad hominem (outrageous is totally unnecessary there). I never indicated we should all be the same, rather we should all be free to develop our identities without the social constructs that society puts in our way. If you want yo express your identity by farting, belching and touching your groin every five minutes, I'm fine with that. But if toy go round sa…

> I never indicated we should all be the same, rather we should all be free to develop our identities without the social constructs that society puts in our way. Minimizing differences, which you have advocated again and again, imply we should all be same.

The OP's article describes a Swedish school's overreaction to gender bias by forcing behaviour modification on students who display gender-conforming behaviour. This is an overreaction to gender bias issues both real and perceived. Ignoring the context presented by the article, emmapersky is advocating gender neutrality. They aren't advocating the forced minimization of gender differences; they want to end bias against those who display gender-variant behaviour.

Gender bias is present in our society along with the pressure to conform to gender stereotypes. Boys who play with dolls are often bullied by other boys and are socially rejected by their peers. Girls who don't dress the right way are bullied by other girls and are also socially rejected by their peers. In adult life, men who chose careers such as nursing are chastised for it by members of both genders. Women who chose professional careers are pressured forgo their careers to have children, again, by the members of both genders. To those who take gender-variant roles, this is a problem.

While there is a problem, some overreact to it trying to treat gender-conforming behaviour as a disease; as this example in the article:

  Hunter College psychologist Virginia Valian, a strong
  proponent of Swedish-style re-genderization, wrote in the
  book Why So Slow? The Advancement of Women, "We do not
  accept biology as destiny ... We vaccinate, we inoculate,
  we medicate... I propose we adopt the same attitude toward
  biological sex differences."
That is not a reasonable solution. Gender-variant behaviour should be tolerated instead of being discouraged. The article's conclusion agrees:

  There was a time when a boy who displayed a persistent
  aversion to trucks and rough play and a fixation on frilly
  dolls or princess paraphernalia would have been considered
  a candidate for behavior modification therapy. Today, most
  experts encourage tolerance, understanding, and
  acceptance: just leave him alone and let him play as he
  wants. The Swedes should extend the same tolerant
  understanding to the gender identity and preferences of
  the vast majority of children.
Postscript: Anyone engaged in the debate of gender bias and gender stereotypes should be aware of both their own and other's social biases[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biases_in_judgment_and_...;

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