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NPM's release cooldown is security theater

blog.outv.im

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Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#61
post #32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*champing at the bit

So I went down the rabbit hole of the meaning of "champ", thinking it might mean something esoteric in the context of "champing at the bit" like "speaking the first line of the skit". But no, "champ" as a verb is just an alternative version of "chomp", or at least a word that differs very subtly from "chomp". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/champing%20at%20t... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ch…

The word champ comes from the world of horses actually

https://www.npr.org/sections/memmos/2016/06/09/605796769/che...

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that sustainable? Are security researchers going to be doing free labor for you indefinitely for exposure?

They sell their products using the credentials they gained. I’d never heard of socket until they found and reported shai hulud hiding in pytorch lightning. It pays off.

What happens after a couple of players have obtained marketshare and the market has consolidated?

I think there are diminishing returns to be had.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#63

> If everyone sets a cooldown, there will be no early adopter. Everyone is waiting for everyone else to be the canary, and the canary does not exist. Except there are researchers chomping at the bit to download every new release of packages in search of vulnerabilities they can exchange for fiat, reputational credit, or both.

I do appreciate these security companies a lot (for example, Snyk), but I feel it hard to believe this is sustainable. Especially in the current world where LLM is devaluing security researchers' work. If they cannot get enough fiat or credit, this will eventually turn to some incident like OpenSSL heartbleed or so.

> LLM is devaluing security researchers' work

I'm confused by this take. In general, LLMs don't replace the expertise required to use an LLM.

Knowing the right input to give the LLM is not enough, nor does it ever end. The LLMs themselves need to be continuously updated and/or specialized for use case, and the "right input" is a moving target.

Keeping both ends of this aligned is the exact same expertise we already had before LLMs. These implementation details would only impact the credibility of those researchers who don't adapt to using this new tool. Who would stumble over something as trivial as this? LLMs aren't even the most important tool in the toolbox anyway.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#65

The conventional meaning of “security theater” requires performance instead of effective action. But the author doesn’t reach that meaning: they claim that cooldowns don’t universalize , which then gets misconstrued into “security theater.” I don’t agree with either claim: I don’t think they’re security theater, and I do think they universalize, contingent on there being security parties that are incentivized to scan…

Thanks for your explanation on the definition of "security theater"!

> But if it turns out they can’t serve as the cooldown vanguard, then we have great evidence that they shouldn’t be trusted at all.

If they cannot serve as the cooldown vanguard, we are indeed going to realize they are not trustable, but by the time the damage has already been done. Therefore, if companies want to prevent the damage as much as possible, I believe they should do the scan by themselves.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#66

I am so uncultured that I was wondering why on earth we were waiting for Godot... But it's of couse because it's THAT Godot and not the game engine.

What Godot is that? I'm only passingly familiar with the game engine.

Sorry! That's 100% on me failing to make the analogy understood.

Shall have thought about that... but I'm playing too many Unity games recently.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#67
What a poor take. Cooldowns certainly don't solve everything but 'out of the box' even with no vetters they'll help catch unauthorised releases on active projects because it's more time to notice.

Account takeovers, deployment exploits whatever the root cause, given a few days it's incredibly likely maintainers will notice they've released an unexpected update and fix/sound an alarm. A lot of existing cases like this people realise pretty fast, but the packages might still be live for a few hours as NPM catches up. Cooldown entirely removes that 'updated at the wrong time' issue, an no-one even needs to actually look at the code at all.

For inactive or intentionally malicious maintainers, yes it relies on vetting. But it's hardly a mythical 'canary' - there are already a lot of companies scanning every popular npm package, auditing new ones, or just generally analysing threats. I can think of at least 4 such companies without even trying, I'm sure there's loads more.

And they'll continue because it's not warm hearted so much as promoting/testing their security scanning services and tools so they can get the kudos from being the first to spot X etc. Which often does hit the front of HN or reddit, but they don't need the massive cyber loudspeaker to be effective. Flagging the issue to maintainers, reporting to NPM security - with a cooldown in place the package can be voided before anyone really gets the chance to install it. This is literally how a lot of things are spotted already, just with that 'updated at the wrong time' issue catching unlucky people out.

Does it solve everything? No. Will it reduce the amount of problems that make it to end users? Obviously yes.

And for all the author's 'no one will do this', 'waiting for Godot' cries - what do they recommend? Running your own audits, using LLMs, static analysis and testing it yourself. Basically being the veter they claim no-one will be! Unless they don't intend to sound the alarm themselves, they are literally the canary they're looking for.

Cooldowns aren't magic, but they're not security theater either.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#68

We're so close to a full circle moment. Next up is "npm stable", a curated set of packages (a "distribution", say) known to work well that are supported for a couple of years with security patches.

A curated list of stable packages won't accomplish anything. A compromised package can just as easily be published as a security update.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#69

The conventional meaning of “security theater” requires performance instead of effective action. But the author doesn’t reach that meaning: they claim that cooldowns don’t universalize , which then gets misconstrued into “security theater.” I don’t agree with either claim: I don’t think they’re security theater, and I do think they universalize, contingent on there being security parties that are incentivized to scan…

Thanks for your explanation on the definition of "security theater"! > But if it turns out they can’t serve as the cooldown vanguard, then we have great evidence that they shouldn’t be trusted at all. If they cannot serve as the cooldown vanguard, we are indeed going to realize they are not trustable, but by the time the damage has already been done. Therefore, if companies want to prevent the damage as much as possi…

I don’t agree about the “damage being done”: there’s no evidence that a cooldown is itself harmful. The worst thing it can do to you is deliver some updates to you slower-than-instantly.

Re: NPM's release cooldown is security theater

#70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of not moving quickly to new software versions has been around for decades. There are COBOL users and CentOS 6 users. They aren't affected by this issue. They might need to face another set of issues like vulnerability backporting and so on. People not worrying about cooldowns might still need to patch their log4j libraries, but that's another thing. This post is not for them. > There are always early adop…

>think this is eventually becoming some type of pointless arms race, as cooldown does not act actively towards reducing ecosystem attacks. The nature of some of these attacks, it does. If your developers machine with publishing rights gets rooted a cool down makes credential gathering attacks via script in npm so very much harder it's not even funny. In some of the recent supply chain attacks the entire fiasco was on…

After reading the comments I now agree a short-length cooldown (maybe 1 or 3 days) is beneficial, given the following assumptions:

- Independent security companies are scanning the packages (be careful if the project is depending on some no-so-popular packages)

- Maintainers react promptly (it would be nonsense if people need to cooldown for 21 days because people may have 21-day vacations)

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