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VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

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Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#61
post #47
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly possible someone could fake something like that for views, but I'm curious what you consider to be the tells that it's no longer an LLM behind the wheel?

Maybe it's LLM and human actor splitting work, but she looks too natural, too fast and too error-free to be LLM based since too long ago. Just their dictation -> thinking -> TTS loop is too fast to be LLM. Context awareness and character adherence is too perfect as well.

Never seen Taalas?

Let alone a decent sized model on a couple 4090s or similar, pretty gud t/s to churn out tts/stt/response/control model actions and emotes.

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#62
post #55
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 2018 anymore, so that's not quite true. By now free models have been there forever, and indies have been using them for as long. I mean, Filian has already been using one over 4 years ago. Which caused some problems with merchandising, but that's a different can of worms.

> Which caused some problems with merchandising, but that's a different can of worms. Can you expand on this? Are they not able to sell merch since they don't "own" their design? How popular are they? Have they considered buying the model from the authors?

It's a complex/murky matter with lots of allegations in every direction that's hard to summarize properly.

The absolute barest bone / neutral summary is that Filian is very popular (3.2 mil subs on yt, 1.3 mil subs on twitch, although she may be retiring currently, or is doing an extensive publicity stunt as her channels and socials are wiped clean). Two years ago, the model's creator announced [0] that Good Smile is making a nendo based off his model for an unnamed vtuber, and that they were not informed beforehand, let alone credited or compensated. They were trying to contact Good Smile and said vtuber to resolve the matter. After a few days Jingo posted an extensive message [1] that the situation was resolved and the parties are cooperating, further noting, among other things, that "free to use in VRchat" does not mean "free to do anything without any credit".

Note that this was not the first time Filian made merch off this model, and it was not stated clearly why Jingo took steps only at that point. Possibly because they never heard about Filian and only realized what's going on since Good Smile is a well known Japanese company.

[0] https://x.com/jingo_1016/status/1809101855655670159

[1] https://x.com/jingo_1016/status/1809811423125729396

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#63
The olds always told me some day I would be old myself and would be baffled by what the youngs are into, I think that day has arrived. I haven't hit the "afraid" stage yet but I'm guessing that is coming.

well at least my generation hasn't destroyed the world, so they weren't completely right. Yet?

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#64

The last section should have been titled “Why Do People Watch It?” because I finished the article still wondering.

That's a bigger question, like why do people watch streamers in the first place. It's not for me personally but it's a huge worldwide multibillion industry so plenty of people enjoy it and / or aspire to be it.

I didn't get it when it first was a thing (like 15 years ago) but now I watch streams of esports/pvp and I watch longplays to scratch an itch for games I have no intention of putting the full time sink into but need to experience bits of the game (like FF7Remake). Being able to skip or passively consume the boring bits is good and it's less addictive than playing.

Occasionally if they are genuinely funny or are a personality I care about, I find the streamer can be additive to the experience.

For example it was quite hilarious and interesting seeing Justin Wong of street fighter fame trying out Elden Ring. Same for Demetrious Johnson from UFC

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#65

The olds always told me some day I would be old myself and would be baffled by what the youngs are into, I think that day has arrived. I haven't hit the "afraid" stage yet but I'm guessing that is coming. well at least my generation hasn't destroyed the world, so they weren't completely right. Yet?

I don't understand the draw of video anything at all; I never have. I can read information 100x faster than a video can provide and I just cannot possibly understand why anyone would want to sit through a 45 minute YouTube video that would have taken 1.5 pages of text.

That said, I'm not at all opposed to OTHERS getting the information in the delivery method they prefer. Great; good for you. But! I don't want to see written word be entirely replaced by video. And, before you ask: no; a transcript of the script is not what I want either.

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#66

The last section should have been titled “Why Do People Watch It?” because I finished the article still wondering.

Same reason people watch any streamers; they either enjoy the streamer's personality, the games they play, or both.

For a lot of people, it's basically like watching one of your friends play a game you enjoy, and a way to become part of a community of others interested in the same thing.

Meanwhile in other cases it's a matter of just not having the time/energy/skill to play the games they're covering, but being interested in seeing how they pan out. For example, I often watch people play extremely difficult mods of games like Super Mario World, Super Mario 64 and New Super Mario Bros Wii. Yes, I could easily go ahead and do the same thing, and I do play mods of those games which are a lot easier...

But I find a good player's experience of these games fun to watch, and don't feel like spending hours on every level trying to match that myself.

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#67

The olds always told me some day I would be old myself and would be baffled by what the youngs are into, I think that day has arrived. I haven't hit the "afraid" stage yet but I'm guessing that is coming. well at least my generation hasn't destroyed the world, so they weren't completely right. Yet?

I don't understand the draw of video anything at all; I never have. I can read information 100x faster than a video can provide and I just cannot possibly understand why anyone would want to sit through a 45 minute YouTube video that would have taken 1.5 pages of text. That said, I'm not at all opposed to OTHERS getting the information in the delivery method they prefer. Great; good for you. But! I don't want to see…

Interesting. I prefer video/audio for the same reason. But I watch most things on 1.5x or 1.8x speed. I'm not a particularly fast reader, so I prefer audio/video forms.

Totally agree with you though about not thinking written form is inferior. I do still enjoy a good long form article. (Also I'm not including technical writing like documentation.)

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#68
post #4

The first time I encountered VTubing, I thought the point was just to hide your face, for various reasons. Being sensitive about your looks, not wanting to attract stalkers, whatever. But there's apparently a lot more to it; I was surprised.

That's one reason. Another big one is it's fun to put on a character. It lets you step away from things you don't like about yourself while embracing the things you do

[deleted]

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#69

The last section should have been titled “Why Do People Watch It?” because I finished the article still wondering.

Oh I can answer this! I watch quite a lot of VTubers, almost all of them from the Hololive brand and a few indies. I don't watch regular streamers anymore.

- The most succinct way I can describe it is it has some overlap with the appeal of the anime/manga subculture in the West. Imagine a character in an anime has a "soul" imbued in them and they talk for hours on YouTube about a brand of ketchup they like and all the specific reasons why they like that brand. Depending on the topic, it's hard for some to get enough of that sort of thing. You feel a sense of (parasocial) connection to the streamer as you get to learn more about them in these hyperspecific ways over the years, in a way that a static, deliberately constructed medium such as anime or manga cannot express. Accumulated personal knowledge of the streamer is the social currency of VTuber fans, and by extension fans of real-life idols, as it can only be gained by watching and following them for a long time. I would recommend the book Idols and Celebrity in Japanese Media Culture for an academic perspective of real-life idols, since many of the concepts overlap with Japanese corporate VTubers.

- Many anime/manga franchises and brands like Vocaloid have historically appealed to a need of emotional connection in the past with things like character goods, but VTubers interact directly with their audience so the effect is much more pronounced. It is like those characters are actually speaking to you for once (though usually they aren't speaking to anyone in particular). Plus they talk about their own favorite anime, manga and games. This is very appealing to some.

- An added benefit to watching VTubers that are part of a corporation is you get to see them interact regularly with the other members, which becomes a large part of the appeal. It makes it feel as if you're watching one cohesive group of friendly individuals, and you can also switch between watching different members if you feel like it/the schedules overlap.

- I don't know about regular streamers, but with VTubers it's a surprisingly social activity. People are encouraged to create art and post it on the hashtags of each streamer, so watching streams is a wellspring of motivation for creative types. A lot of the things depicted in that art would be unusual or weird if they were drawn for real-life streamers IMO, but in the VTubing sphere it is seen differently. I would say the vast majority of VTubers aren't insulted if you post something explicit of them so long as you keep it off of the offical channels. They will just ignore it and carry on. There is something to be said about this in a culture that some might say is becoming more and more puritanical.

- The fan communities are niche but very devoted. The people I've met through them have helped me in a lot of ways, and I have also managed to give back as well. Being a fan gives you a sense of identity. Meeting with a fan that watches the same streamer instantly gives us a lot things to talk about. Multiple people I met at in person events have described the community as "home" to them, maybe same as football fans are with a favorite team. People wear the liveries of their favorite streamer or cosplay and group together for large gatherings or do online fan activities. I'm not aware of an equivalent for someone like Asmongold!

- In Hololive's case, it is a truly apolitical streaming experience, I believe one of the few that exists with their level of popularity. I watch VTubers to shut out the chaos and cynicism of the rest of the world. You can depend on Hololive for this anti-cynicism bubble because they have stringent rules that politics or inflammatory topics are off-limits. Instead of feeling that it's restrictive, I would say it's a breath of fresh air. But in addition, the VTubers themselves are just fun to watch. Reading the interactions they have with each other online is one of the few times I get the "old web" feeling that has mostly vanished from modern social media. It is a precious feeling and I end up wanting to protect and cultivate it.

- With Hololive in particular, it's hard to describe but after watching for a while you get a "feeling" for what brand identity the management is trying to build, and that identity appeals to me. It is built on some level of restrictions on topics/activities (permission to steam certain games being one example) but the trade-off is the amount of resources thrown at each VTuber means they are freer to be themselves within those limitations and they don't have to act outrageous all the time to get attention, since the company takes care of promotions and reach. This one is big for me. I disagree with the article's notion that "eccentric", "expressive" and "weirder" necessarily contributes to a more appealing stream environment. A lot of those things mean being loud and attention-grabbing if you're an indie with no support to stand out in the overcrowded market, which quickly loses its appeal to me.

- Being a fan gives me an excuse to feel like a child again, without the feeling of being perceived as weird or a loner. I think this is common to a lot of hobbies. I can carry around a plushie of a VTuber I like in public and people have randomly come up to me an said "oh! Is that ______?" and we can hold a sustained conversation for like half an hour.

Wanting a sense of togetherness is why I keep returning. True, it is an experience based on a false sense of connection with the streamer, but I have made a lot of real friends in the hobby and we talk regularly.

Re: VTubing: How a Japanese Phenomenon Is Going Worldwide

#70

The last section should have been titled “Why Do People Watch It?” because I finished the article still wondering.

I enjoy a handful of streamers for a few reasons: * I get to experience games I wouldn't normally have time for: I work full time, and as much as I love games and always make time for them, I still have a finite amount of time to make and a solid chunk of that time has to be devoted to multiplayer games, since it's a big part of how I meet my social needs. And even then, some games that are quite fun to watch for me…

Not the parent, but I have the same question.

Your reasons above could be said about streamers in general, but what about VTubers in particular appeals to you?

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