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AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

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Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that take anything away from the argument?

What argument, "a theory was wrong"? No, the inane central observation, the observation that a researcher was unable to predict a discovery before it was discovered, remains true despite the gratuitous insertion of a little bit of bullshit about AI learning. I suppose it's additionally trying to imply something else, like "due to a pattern of researchers being unable to discover discoveries before they discover them,…

its one thing to say "we dont know"

it's a different thing to say "it's mathematically impossible"

so if it turns out it is possible, what then? was math broken? or the researcher an idiot who either doesnt know math, or is just bullshitting non-existing proofs?

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#62
So we have that quote from the Oxford guy about explanations: "systems that can explain... You need models that can answer questions like: What matters? What causes what?", and then a mention of simulation of what the world looks like.

Fine, that describes theorizing.

But then a contradictory ending statement: "We're still going to need humans to figure out what questions to ask, what to build, what to create".

So that's moral theorizing. I don't think you can have one without the other. Then there's two more suggestions before the end of the article:

> smarter than us

> staff of assistants

Both of which are completely gratuitous assumptions. Why should its theories be better than established ones? Is it supposed to be a maverick hermit genius and come up with everything from first principles, or does it in fact participate in the existing world of ideas like a normal person? Then, being a normal person with moral theories, why would it take on the role of assistant rather than theorizing "I don't want to do that for you"?

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What argument, "a theory was wrong"? No, the inane central observation, the observation that a researcher was unable to predict a discovery before it was discovered, remains true despite the gratuitous insertion of a little bit of bullshit about AI learning. I suppose it's additionally trying to imply something else, like "due to a pattern of researchers being unable to discover discoveries before they discover them,…

its one thing to say "we dont know" it's a different thing to say "it's mathematically impossible" so if it turns out it is possible, what then? was math broken? or the researcher an idiot who either doesnt know math, or is just bullshitting non-existing proofs?

Mathematics doesn't tell you what is necessarily true. It consists of guessing about what is necessarily true.

(I don't know the details of what happened, it could be either or neither of the things you said.)

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, almost any argument against LLM intelligence also applies to humans. I very commonly see someone make some small mistake and end up going in the wrong direction, “accumulating stupid” as they go, sometimes for years.

Also with the stochastic parrot thing. If you say just the right thing to the right human and the right time, they'll very predictibly say their favorite movie/book quote or song lyric, like some sort of parrot.

An LLM will tell you how a song feels, even if it has literally no way to experience music. Because it's not thoughts or feelings that you get from an LLM. We take a massive amount of information, compress it into a large graph, then explore sections of the graph via prompts. That's what the stochastic parrot means. And that doesn't compare with how humans think. It's just a completely different architecture

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#65
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same with human intelligence though. A human can be brilliant on some things and then we're puzzled why they are so idiotic in other areas. Every time this comes up, people pick on any kind of flaws or inconsistencies of AI models, while at the same time giving a huge pass to the extreme variation in intelligence and stupidness displayed in human behaviour. Creativity is the same. Human artists are "inspired…

> It's the same with human intelligence though. No, this is not the same observation. In "basic LLM", the answer is not "confused" or "fail to understand", the answer is "inconsistent with the understanding mechanism". It is not that they "fail to understand while trying to understand", it is that there is not understanding mechanism at all. Humans can have different level of intelligence, depending on the individual…

Humans don't make the exact same errors of LLMs of course. Humans are very different beings.

So you recognize that Claude is not a human.

Humans make mistakes as well "inconsistent with the understanding mechanism", but they have a very different form, and you are so used to the particular failure mode of humans, that you don't think about it.

But aliens visiting earth likely would find some aspects of human mind very peculiar!

Examples:

Humans learning algebra (or really anything like playing music, paddling a canoe, etc.) have to go through lots and lots of trivial basic mistakes, and only learn to avoid them through repetition and pattern matching on earlier experience, rather than relying on "reasoning".

A "pure reasonable being" would simply be learned the rules for algebra then go ahead and make perfect deductions applying the rules -- but humans are very clearly not such beings. Humans can know the rules for algebra perfectly well, then still go ahead and make mistakes until enough training has been done until we say you have "learned" it (be able to pattern match on previous experience).

Imagine humans being employed by aliens to do algebra, then aliens seeing humans basically do "2 + 2 = 5" (just on a higher complexity level). Like very human in first year in university WILL do with their formulas. What would you conclude about humans and their relation to "real understanding"?

Or another example: Humans engage a lot in post-rationalization, having first made up ones mind, then finding the reasons for the choice afterwards. (Most striking example of post-rationalization is the experiments on patients with severed brain half connections where one brain half invents a reason it can believe in for a choice made by the other brain half; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain -- but if you look at pretty much any political issue for instance it is clear that people are driven at least as much by being herd animals as by doing any reasoning -- the majority of humans decide what people they belong with first, then figure out why afterwards).

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#66
post #10

The article seems to define "smart" as being good at spatial awareness and navigating a body through 3D space and such. Thus, a mice is smarter than an LLM. That's the first time in my life I hear this definition. Until now, the word "smart" has meant doing exactly the things LLMs do, and mice don't. I guess it is a sign we are re-evaluating what makes humans special.

I still remember when "smart" meant knowing the number of Rs in strawberry

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#67

Besides "smart", the headline also conflates AI with LLMs. The real, non-clickbait title is "Yann LeCun, founder of AMI Labs, is developing a new AI system"

Everyone nowadays seems to only think of AI as LLMs or maybe also stable diffusion. People want to ban games with AI in them, when by definition every NPC is following some kind of AI algorithm.

This chess game has a min-max algorithm in it! AI slop! It should have a short person hidden inside like the original Mechanical Turk!

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also with the stochastic parrot thing. If you say just the right thing to the right human and the right time, they'll very predictibly say their favorite movie/book quote or song lyric, like some sort of parrot.

An LLM will tell you how a song feels, even if it has literally no way to experience music. Because it's not thoughts or feelings that you get from an LLM. We take a massive amount of information, compress it into a large graph, then explore sections of the graph via prompts. That's what the stochastic parrot means. And that doesn't compare with how humans think. It's just a completely different architecture

The trouble is that a 24/7 AI stochastic parrot does pretty damn well at some things.

In my estimation, we're arguing about how big the blast radius will be.

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, almost any argument against LLM intelligence also applies to humans. I very commonly see someone make some small mistake and end up going in the wrong direction, “accumulating stupid” as they go, sometimes for years.

Also with the stochastic parrot thing. If you say just the right thing to the right human and the right time, they'll very predictibly say their favorite movie/book quote or song lyric, like some sort of parrot.

And also, if you put an actual parrot in a room full of programmers, it might learn a few word of programming jargon, but it never will become a useful coding partner the way LLMs are.

Re: AI is 'not smart' so what's next in artificial intelligence?

#70
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the same with human intelligence though. No, this is not the same observation. In "basic LLM", the answer is not "confused" or "fail to understand", the answer is "inconsistent with the understanding mechanism". It is not that they "fail to understand while trying to understand", it is that there is not understanding mechanism at all. Humans can have different level of intelligence, depending on the individual…

Humans don't make the exact same errors of LLMs of course. Humans are very different beings. So you recognize that Claude is not a human. Humans make mistakes as well "inconsistent with the understanding mechanism", but they have a very different form, and you are so used to the particular failure mode of humans, that you don't think about it. But aliens visiting earth likely would find some aspects of human mind ver…

I find this kind of reasoning a bit pointless and unfalsifiable.

Someone says "LLMs fail at this", and you say "but humans also sometimes fail", then they says "but we are not talking about the same thing", and you answer "this difference does not matter because aliens may be totally different".

My point is that what we observe with LLMs does not require any understanding. And in some cases, it is clear the answer of a LLM was built without understanding. And in other cases, it looks like it could have been built with understanding because there is no visible errors, but because we know the LLM can build things without understanding, this can equally simply be something that is built without understanding and happen to have no error, and therefore just looks like it has been built with understanding.

I think you take the problem the wrong way: you start from the hypothesis that there is understanding, and then you are finding reasons to maintain this conclusion (the most prominent ones being "humans also can do mistake" or "... fake understanding" or "... hallucinate". Well, humans can do a lot of things that don't require intelligence, does it mean that things that do these things that do not require intelligence are in fact as intelligent as humans?). This is a confirmation bias.

I don't have problem if it turns out LLMs have understanding. But the reality right now is that a simple explanation is that it does not have it. But it feels like some people just argue "but it is still possible, bending this argument there and there". I bet at some point, they will say "ok, I see your point, but maybe LLMs are intelligent and have this behavior on purpose because they want to remain hidden because they are smart enough to understand that if humans would know, they would freak out". It feels more and more like a belief system rather than a scientific approach.

Just two elements to go further:

- in the majority of cases, "things that have been faked to look like there are the result of understanding" will be correct. Because if you are trained to pretend you understand, you are trained to imitate someone who has understood, and you are therefore trained to imitate their reasoning, which turns out to be correct. (if you want to test the understanding, it is complicated, because the "understanding" is a data leakage during training)

- if LLMs extract understanding for the data from their training, it is strange that their current understanding (just after the training) is so close to the current understanding of the humans. Surely humans have missed stuffs here and there. The math theorem number 3424 not solved yet is probably as "simple" than the math theorem number 6423 that happened to be solved by humans, it is just by chance and circumstances that some humans have worked on 6423 and found a way to crack it while they did not spend as much time and effort on 3424. And yet, LLMs just happen to never notice any theorem on their own at the end of the training phase. Asking a LLM "Explain to me a math theorem that humans did not notice, with demonstration. This theorem should be something you understood when you were trained over maths" just does not work.

(and, please, I know that a mathematician may know theorem 3424 and yet not have noticed 6423 either, or that LLMs can scan a math problem with a large series of math tools and find a break-through. But my point is that LLMs are studying math soooo intensively during the training that they know all the human theorems, which is way more knowledge than any single mathematicians. And yet, it turns out that all this math understanding just ends up being exactly limited to what humans already know. What are the odds? Or more probably: they just don't really understand math, and when asked about a known theorem, they generate a correct explanation based on training data without properly understanding it)

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