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The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

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Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#61

Post by fracus »

munificent wrote: post #55
raincole wrote: post #7

As a game dev, the fact "AI" as a keyword became totally unusable is quite annoying.

As an ex-game dev, I always found it a little annoying that they used "AI" for what was essentially just hard-coded logic. It's a hard problem because "AI" has been a term since the 50s but has been used to describe different approaches to making a computer do things over time. The way game developers use "AI" to mean "hardcoded logic for game behavior" is fully inline with what "AI" meant in the 60s when they were u…

NPC behaviour has always been described as AI though, even before the AI as we know it now was even invented. AI is a very general umbrella term being repurposed to describe LLMs.

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#62

Post by killingtime74 »

Rendello wrote: post #46
raincole wrote: post #7

As a game dev, the fact "AI" as a keyword became totally unusable is quite annoying.

The same thing happened with crypto (cryptography) after Bitcoin blew up, though it was just an abbreviation so it wasn't as bad. There's no ambiguity when speaking, but when searching Rust-related things I get a lot of Rust game stuff. "Rust crates" or "Rust drops" correspond to in-game things so the fandom wiki will pop up. Occasionally I'll even get rust-removal webpages.

Crypto is not short for cryptography though in that context, it's cryptocurrency?

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#63

Post by jjmarr »

lelandfe wrote: post #58
H1Supreme wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I finally started using the internet to figure out what I'm supposed to do next on some of the quests, I couldn't believe how many of the answers were "Talk to the NPC three times in a row to exhaust their dialogue". Like, are you shitting me? Why? After a while, I would do this to every NPC, every time. But, yeah, it's a bad design.

The entire franchise is filled with what one would consider objectively bad designs It makes for a deeply unique experience overall Perhaps the one you’d most object to is the DS1 DLC, that people paid money for, lacking instructions for access. It involves killing a specific enemy and returning to a previous location. At the time, people forked over cash and had to prowl the whole game playing spot the difference.

It has gotten worse. Shadow of the Erdtree requires you to kill a boss (Mohg) hidden within a SECRET AREA (Mohgwyn Palace) hidden within ANOTHER secret area (Consecrated Snowfield).

And the Consecrated Snowfield is only accessible if you find two parts of a hidden medallion, the first in a castle later in the game than the lift it operates. The second is hidden in a jar underneath a mountain. But you can't just smash the jar, you have to talk to the NPC inside the jar twice before you'll get the medallion.

The market rewards abstruse design.

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#64

Post by mscbuck »

jjmarr wrote: post #63
lelandfe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire franchise is filled with what one would consider objectively bad designs It makes for a deeply unique experience overall Perhaps the one you’d most object to is the DS1 DLC, that people paid money for, lacking instructions for access. It involves killing a specific enemy and returning to a previous location. At the time, people forked over cash and had to prowl the whole game playing spot the difference.

It has gotten worse. Shadow of the Erdtree requires you to kill a boss (Mohg) hidden within a SECRET AREA (Mohgwyn Palace) hidden within ANOTHER secret area (Consecrated Snowfield). And the Consecrated Snowfield is only accessible if you find two parts of a hidden medallion, the first in a castle later in the game than the lift it operates. The second is hidden in a jar underneath a mountain. But you can't just smash…

To be fair, there is a different way to get to Mohg. You can talk to Varre at the Rose Church in the Lakes of Liurnia, and he gets you on the quest line that gets you there. You basically have to invade 3 (i think) people's worlds, PvP, doesn't matter if you win or lose, or there is one NPC that you can do an invasion on in Altus Plateau. Then he'll give you an item that just needs to be soaked in the blood of a maiden (and it's made explicit what you need to do, not just left for you to figure out). After that you get the letter and he will take you to Mohg.

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#65

Post by wisty »

lelandfe wrote: post #58
H1Supreme wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I finally started using the internet to figure out what I'm supposed to do next on some of the quests, I couldn't believe how many of the answers were "Talk to the NPC three times in a row to exhaust their dialogue". Like, are you shitting me? Why? After a while, I would do this to every NPC, every time. But, yeah, it's a bad design.

The entire franchise is filled with what one would consider objectively bad designs It makes for a deeply unique experience overall Perhaps the one you’d most object to is the DS1 DLC, that people paid money for, lacking instructions for access. It involves killing a specific enemy and returning to a previous location. At the time, people forked over cash and had to prowl the whole game playing spot the difference.

Partly the jank is just a cost thing. Even major studios struggle with branching and merging stateful quest lines in game. I guess From picked a system that is cheap, robust, but kind of annoying for players, who forgive it because they otherwise love the game.

To some extent it's a design decision maybe. From makes games that are harsh and unforgiving, but not too harsh - you can mess up bits of quests but not end up unable to get an ending (afaik) which kind of matches the gameplay (harsh but not rage-quit inducing).

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#66

Post by Jach »

badprose wrote: post #31
bigyabai wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially in Elden Ring, it also contributes to the ludonarrative cohesion. Hyetta's quest (no spoilers!) isn't meant to be completed by everyone, her story is a foil to Melina's "default" questline that is mandatory for beating the game. Other characters (eg. Boc, Sellen, Selivus, Thops) also have quests that are easy to start but deliberately obfuscated towards the end. The JRPG logic is annoying, but From uses it…

They're victims of success. Lautrec was so infamous some people (read: me) are too scared to play the game without a guide now. "What if I missed some NPC and I can't level up anymore?!"

I just accept I'll miss things / get some sub-optimal outcomes for my first play, though I do try to explore a lot and sometimes player messages help rather than troll/spoil/be funny. Guides only come out for NG+ and beyond.

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#67

Post by pitkali »

jjmarr wrote: post #63
lelandfe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire franchise is filled with what one would consider objectively bad designs It makes for a deeply unique experience overall Perhaps the one you’d most object to is the DS1 DLC, that people paid money for, lacking instructions for access. It involves killing a specific enemy and returning to a previous location. At the time, people forked over cash and had to prowl the whole game playing spot the difference.

It has gotten worse. Shadow of the Erdtree requires you to kill a boss (Mohg) hidden within a SECRET AREA (Mohgwyn Palace) hidden within ANOTHER secret area (Consecrated Snowfield). And the Consecrated Snowfield is only accessible if you find two parts of a hidden medallion, the first in a castle later in the game than the lift it operates. The second is hidden in a jar underneath a mountain. But you can't just smash…

All the speedrunners just kill the guy in the jar to get the medallion: you don't have to talk to him.

Also, all you have to do in the Snowfield is to take a teleporter: that's not very secret, is it?

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#68

Post by WhereIsTheTruth »

cgh wrote: post #5

Perhaps this explains why Fromsoft npc quests are easily the most inscrutable in all of gaming. Like, okay Hyetta, have another “grape”, aka eyeball, oh now you’ve moved to the bridge in Liurnia, cool. I’ve exhausted your dialogue but you’re stuck. Oh I have to reload the area and exhaust it again to advance your quest. Okay, cool. Now you’re in a random church and you want a “fingerprint grape”. What? It’s all part…

You picked the most filler, unfinished questline to make a point for your argument lol

And yet, that's still way better than having a quest log UI, constant screen notifications, and narration that babysit you all the time, treating you like you have never played a RPG before, acting like you are too stupid to read and listen to npc dialogue and items lore

I'll take the jank over what the western industry is filled with

For their first real open world, it holds pretty well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF0NyeCARf4

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#69

Post by rootlocus »

munificent wrote: post #55
raincole wrote: post #7

As a game dev, the fact "AI" as a keyword became totally unusable is quite annoying.

As an ex-game dev, I always found it a little annoying that they used "AI" for what was essentially just hard-coded logic. It's a hard problem because "AI" has been a term since the 50s but has been used to describe different approaches to making a computer do things over time. The way game developers use "AI" to mean "hardcoded logic for game behavior" is fully inline with what "AI" meant in the 60s when they were u…

LLMs can be described as "hardcoded weights for generating the next token". All code is "hardcoded".

I think AI for game NPCs is perfectly valid terminology. The actor senses the surroundings and makes decisions to achieve its goals within the constraints and events of the environment.

Re: The Low-Tech AI of Elden Ring

#70

Post by WhereIsTheTruth »

Low Tech is a simplification, it's a massive over engineered spaghetti system

They have accumulated bloat and tech debt since their inception as a studio

https://github.com/ividyon/EldenRingHKS/blob/main/c9997.hks

But it works for them, and that's what creates their flavored games, i hope they'll never change a bit

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