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Japanese symbols that speak without words

arun.is

61–70 of 143 posts

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#61
post #59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Symbols are hard. They can be done well. I don't think many would mind changing a 'call' button with a '[telephone receiver icon]' button, but those kinds of examples are probably in the minority.

> telephone receiver icon It’s weird because no one has a phone that looks that way now. Does the younger generation even know that it’s a phone? Same with a lot of software iconography.

I mean, I knew how a rotary dial worked (from a UX perspective) just through watching films before I ever got to handle one (and I've never placed a real call with one), so I'd assume that gen Z and A can still recognise a ye olde phone, assuming its not one with some wild design that's on the edge of the (Graham) bell curve of what constitutes a normal 'phone' shape.

Even then, most call icons I've seen don't only have the receiver as part of the icon, but some waves to, to indicate sound (speaker/sound icons often do the same, unless intend to mean 'mute', but that's usually paired with a cross or something). Given that, you could probably get away with anything half-moon-ish shaped, so long as it also has those waves on the upper end of the icon, and it'd still be recognisable as a phone receiver and a 'call' icon (please don't do that though. Just make a normal icon).

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The signaler needs to have anticipated it and not signaled until this problem doesn't exist How do you handle an upcoming left turn (assuming right hand driving) during heavy traffic? It's not the responsibility of the car changing lanes to optimize the fuel economy of the cars behind, but it is the responsibility of the cars behind to not needlessly impede other drivers from getting where they need to go. > When t…

> How do you handle an upcoming left turn (assuming right hand driving) during heavy traffic? If I am in the middle lane (lane 2), and I realize I need to get into the leftmost lane (lane 1) to make a turn, but lane 1 is too full for me to simply move into it without affecting others, then I would have no choice but to cut someone off. I would minimize the effect in two ways: by trying to cut off whoever has left the…

> Suppose the car in lane 1 is going slower because they just merged from a left-side entrance ramp.

Just to clarify, my original post was more about merging from a faster lane of travel into a slower lane, or where both lanes are traveling at about the same speed.

When merging into a faster lane I agree the slower moving car should wait for a suitable opening before signaling and merging. And there are cases where it is safer to pass a car with its blinker on than to slam on the brakes.

But also in general it's unsafe to be traveling at a large speed differential to the lane next to you. And a lot of times even though people probably could ease up a bit to make space for another car, and it would be safer to do so, they don't.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#63
I think the fact that these symbols are "not words" is not in itself super earth-shattering. What really matters is whether they have to be learned like words. You could learn the words "New Driver" as a single "symbol", or you could learn the beginner symbol. The advantage of a verbal label is you can understand it without learning it, if you know the system its embdded in (i.e., English); its disadvantage is it's a big more complex and harder to distinguish from other symbols in that system if you don't know the system. The advantage of the symbol is it's compact and can be learned without having to take on the full complexity of a linguistic writing system; the disadvantage is it has to be learned separately by everyone, even those who already know a much more powerful system (namely, writing).

There are limits to both. Obviously it wouldn't be effective to have a bumper sticker that says "This driver has been driving for less than a year, so please use caution around them"; if you lean too much on the power of writing, you make it too hard to quickly identify the meaning. On the other hand, it's not easy to come up with a wide variety of sui generis symbols and still have them be visually distinguishable at a glance, so there's also a limit to how far that approach can get you.

I do wonder whether there is some link between differential reliance on symbols of this sort and the use of alphabetic vs. nonalphabetic writing systems in different languages/cultures. Like, crudely speaking, is it the case that, because you already have to learn so many separate symbols to read Japanese, learning a few more for stuff like "elderly driver" isn't much of an extra load? Or is it the reverse, that because you have to learn so many symbols to read Japanese, they want to make these separate symbols for a small set of important meanings so people can learn them even if they don't know how to read? I'm not sure whether there's a real link here or not but it's interesting to think about.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#64

This is a classic case of "Thing in japan". Yes 'wakaba' mark is cool. But the exact same point can be made about a big red L . Far more ubiquitous. Also there are beautiful medieval crests on British Fire engines. I doubt that purely wordless, symbolic system was truly the ultimate pinnacle of operational clarity.

I would love to read your article about the beautiful medieval crests on British fire engines, too! No joke, feel free to link something in reply to my comment as well if you have existing articles. I feel like there has been a lot of unnecessary pushback about 'Thing in Japan' articles on the internet. Guess what, there are cool things everywhere; including Japan. Write about the ones you know about!

I think the point is more that nobody thinks weeb content is good except for weebs.

Or, if you like, it’s still all just orientalism.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#65
post #3

The logo expressing "Limited Express" is very unspecific, imagine if buses with the Mercedes star cost extra and didn't stop at every stop. Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them: https://ygraph.com/graphs/roadsigns-20120316T030941-ekrruua.... , or are obvious, whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh... For example the yi…

It was very surprising for me when I visited the US to see just how much space was wasted writing everything out on every sign and sometimes in giant words on the road. It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education...

You have to pass a written test to get your drivers license, so yes, you are indeed expected to be able to read.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#66
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was very surprising for me when I visited the US to see just how much space was wasted writing everything out on every sign and sometimes in giant words on the road. It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education...

To me it's odd to imply people must be stupid because they're expected to read a few simple words such as "Left lane must turn left" rather than to memorize a bunch of symbols. American signs very frequently combine both styles - for instance, you see the above words next to a sign with arrows for whatever lanes, wordlessly illustrating the turn types permitted. If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symboli…

People have seen the symbols since childhood, and as far as I know in every European country it's necessary to pass the exam on knowing what they mean before starting practical driving lessons.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#67
post #12
post #3

The logo expressing "Limited Express" is very unspecific, imagine if buses with the Mercedes star cost extra and didn't stop at every stop. Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them: https://ygraph.com/graphs/roadsigns-20120316T030941-ekrruua.... , or are obvious, whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh... For example the yi…

Both have pretty enjoyable design language. The US signs follow colors, red for prohibition, white for rules, yellow for hazards, green for directional and blue for service. For Europe or the Vienna convention that much of the world uses, in respective order it's red for prohibition, circles for rules, triangle for hazards.

And blue for instruction, so a blue circle is something you must do.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#68

This is a classic case of "Thing in japan". Yes 'wakaba' mark is cool. But the exact same point can be made about a big red L . Far more ubiquitous. Also there are beautiful medieval crests on British Fire engines. I doubt that purely wordless, symbolic system was truly the ultimate pinnacle of operational clarity.

Yeah, these are not good symbols, except the help mark. None of them have any meaning, they must simply be learned.

I recognize some of them, from seeing them in Japan, but I thought they meant some kind of taxi.

A symbolic ear would be better to designate deafness, a walking stick age.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should be viewed as more unique actually is how verbose North America is. Especially in the car part that I know of, watching car reviews online - road signs or even buttons in a vehicle that would be symbols in Europe or Asia are written out.

Aren't we (as an HN hivemind) always complaining that UI is removing text labels and leaving us with symbols only?

We complain about bad symbols, or symbols introduced without any explanation or time to learn them.

The symbols on a European car (TBH I've never noticed the difference in a hired American car) don't have this problem. They refer to real things, like lights and fans.

Re: Japanese symbols that speak without words

#70
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's odd to imply people must be stupid because they're expected to read a few simple words such as "Left lane must turn left" rather than to memorize a bunch of symbols. American signs very frequently combine both styles - for instance, you see the above words next to a sign with arrows for whatever lanes, wordlessly illustrating the turn types permitted. If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symboli…

The system of signs used is an independent question from the level of driver education (which probably is generally lower in the USA than in most European countries though), which also is another question from whether people "are stupid". The obvious benefit of the European style is that you don't need to speak the language in order to understand the signs, something that is clearly less important given the relative…

The European signs also fare better in snow, very heavy rain or if they're really dirty, since the shape (and maybe some colour) is still visible.
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