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Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

paulkrugman.substack.com

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Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#61

Post by bob001 »

applicative wrote: post #49
goalieca wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not seem to ring true. 175k people die annually of heat in Europe. https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/01-08-2024-statement--h...

There is really no similary between the most populous areas of Europe and, say, Columbus or Chicago or .... The summers in eastern America are savage and inhuman; the winters, by contrast, are ... savage and inhuman. People complain about the weather in England, but in fact there are palm and eucalyptus growing in Oxford, though it's bad taste and you might lose one in a bad winter. It never gets hot and never gets c…

So despite a nicer climate more people die of heat in Europe than the US which just makes Europe look a lot worse.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#62

Post by bryanrasmussen »

diego_moita wrote: post #10
pirate787 wrote: post #3

Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…

> Don't ignore the data. Ah, the classic "don't ignore the data that confirms my worldview, ignore just the data that contradicts it". Also known as "lies, damn lies and statistics".

said by an American!

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#63

Post by [deleted] »

bilekas wrote: post #25
pirate787 wrote: post #3

Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…

This comment probably won't go down well but your point irked me. > And the strategic issues of continued vast unskilled migration into Europe If only there wasn't a global power invading countries for oil reserves over the years and causing mass migration and destabilising those places? Also have you considered 100% of the EU doesn't NEED air conditioning? Come back when you have a minimum wage and universal healthc…

[deleted]

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#64

Post by vovavili »

piva00 wrote: post #58
vovavili wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe Uhh... https://imgur.com/a/MTTMKDr

So you are saying AC is a need in the Netherlands for the odd week of heatwaves in a year? Installing thousands to millions of AC compressors, piping, having the grid ready for the spike in consumption when all these ACs turn on, etc. is a necessity that needs to happen because The Hague is reaching 30C for 3 days in the next week?

Buddy, this is far from three days a year in some specific Dutch city. We have this happening all over the continent. You're just out of touch.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#65

Post by applicative »

RandomLensman wrote: post #9
piva00 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe, no idea why that would be a measurement of economic advancement. Krugman presented arguments with data, it'd be nice to see your data that counters Krugman's argument, not a whole different set of measurements that you are defining as the basis of comparison. It's just a strawman with makeup.

Most of Europe doesn't need air conditioning? By what measures/what large countries don't have any need there?

It's the reality: it doesn't get hot in the summer and it doesn't get cold in the winter. The climate is 'maritime' and moderated by the immense influence of the Atlantic/Mediterranean/Baltic. On the east coast of USA you might expect the same, but the wind is from the west and thus to some extent reproduces the savage 'continental' weather of the interior. The main body of Americans live in extremely hostile weather environments.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#66

Post by throwaway63467 »

pirate787 wrote: post #3

Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…

Such a weird way of thinking, we achieved so many technological breakthroughs that can benefit everyone, why should anyone fall behind? Worldwide we see the opposite i.e. the world is converging more and more. And even so I don’t care, you may consume twice or thrice as much as me if you like! I don’t think most people even want to compete with the US on purchase power equality anymore, life’s pretty good here and it keeps getting better, consumption in itself isn’t an end goal. Almost all countries here are happier and healthier than the US and people spend much less time working and more time enjoying themselves.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#67

Post by tschellenbach »

Dutch living in Colorado. You can spin stats any way you like. But if you look at the last few waves of companies. Machines for making chips, manufacturing chips, designing chips, search, social, mobile, AI.

If this was a soccer match the score would be 10-1 (yee ASML). Not only that the winners in these industries tend to compound and grow.

There are many great things about the EU, that are outside of this competitive ecosystem. But I don't think sticking our heads in the sand is really a great idea.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#68

Post by b40d-48b2-979e »

weatherlite wrote: post #57
piva00 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland, Germany, Switzerland, Benelux, the Nordics, Baltics, most of Central Europe don't have a need for AC. It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive. Southern Europe has experienced more scorching heat the past 1-2 decades and AC is going to become a necessity given the trend of climate warming but it's not Arizona. Also I think people aren't aware…

> It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive. Well I don't know , I lived 4 years in the Netherlands in one of those apartments that have huge windows on every room. During the summer some days got closed to 37-38c and the sun sets at what , 11PM ? I was pretty scared our newborn might die - I put a fan right on her of course but I'm not sure this setup…

    the sun sets at what , 11PM ?
No. Even now, in the longest days of the year, the sun sets at 10pm, and we're not even into the hottest days of the year for another month or two as the days continue to get shorter again.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#69

Post by bob001 »

piva00 wrote: post #58
vovavili wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe Uhh... https://imgur.com/a/MTTMKDr

So you are saying AC is a need in the Netherlands for the odd week of heatwaves in a year? Installing thousands to millions of AC compressors, piping, having the grid ready for the spike in consumption when all these ACs turn on, etc. is a necessity that needs to happen because The Hague is reaching 30C for 3 days in the next week?

Interesting how little lives are worth to Europeans given how many die due to heat each year. To beat America in indifference to one's own people is an actual achievement.

Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline

#70

Post by RandomLensman »

applicative wrote: post #65
RandomLensman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe doesn't need air conditioning? By what measures/what large countries don't have any need there?

It's the reality: it doesn't get hot in the summer and it doesn't get cold in the winter. The climate is 'maritime' and moderated by the immense influence of the Atlantic/Mediterranean/Baltic. On the east coast of USA you might expect the same, but the wind is from the west and thus to some extent reproduces the savage 'continental' weather of the interior. The main body of Americans live in extremely hostile weather…

Around 40C isn't hot? Around -20C isn't cold, for example?
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